When was the peak of Western Civilization?

Discussion in 'Culture' started by Marcilla Smith, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Alexander's campaign against Bessus
  2. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    In a renewed quest to maintain ordered discussion on the Forum, I've moved this topic to its own thread.

    I nominate the 1950's. It was the decade when I was born. I had a great early childhood, just like something straight out of Leave It to Beaver.

    It's all been downhill from there.
  3. Sgt Pepper

    Sgt Pepper Member

    I'm going with @Jerry Russell 's nomination of the 50's.
    One person could support a household with a longterm job.
  4. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Now that you've all answered the question, what am I supposed to rant against now? :mad:

    Out of the two positions, I say that Ms. Marcilla Smith wins hands down. But since the latter answer is nearer to us, and has garnered a whole two votes (50% no less), I feel compelled to ask if those in favor of this period were fans of such as Brown vs. Board of Education or not? Are they saying that there were no improvements to American (in this case) society since the 50's, or that the minuses merely outweigh any pluses.

    Should women return to being compliant baby factories as God intended them?

    And as for what God intended, surely the South is correct that the 'darkie' descendants of Canaan are better off as slaves, as discussed in the Bible, the Holy Word (it Will Not Be Questioned) of God?

    My lonely birth mother was obviously fornicating on Christmas Eve (unless she was the Virgin that is) and I ended up being sprouted 9 months later inside a Catholic hospital, from whence I was adopted into a nice Protestant family, made barren probably by my adoptive paternal grandmothers' poor cooking. As such, wouldn't you 'apparent' conservatives agree that there was already too much loosey-goosey moral practices even at this time? Supposedly decent woman who indulge in such fornication are supposed to be stoned to death, while husbands are to visit prostitutes, in order to maintain good order. Also, decent fathers should take their sons to prostitutes so as to learn how to fertilize their future mates. All of these decent practices were generally terminated before the 50's, by various do-gooders -- probably frustrated prohibitionists and suffragettes. Again, women were not intended to vote, but to be baby factories (or training prostitutes instead - God ordains).

    Would you agree that the 50's appearance was the natural organic outflow of the Great War, fought by the Greatest Generation of humans that have ever walked the face of the Earth? It was this wonderfully glorious war that lifted us out of the Great Depression wasn't it, where your parents and/or grandparents might(?) have otherwise been in soup lines but for the grace of God? My adoptive parents and grandparents made it through without needing to do so, so maybe the Great Depression was Fake News? And/or, as moribund member, ousia, insists, the soupsuckers (of the 30's) were merely lazy leaches. They were randy, but not Randy. :rolleyes:

    I hope that you merely copied this aspect and not really "moved" it?

    What about similarly maintaining the 'order' of the rambling, kitchen sink, personal prelature, Group Think thread?
  5. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    OK, I'm not going to wait for a reply here.

    Both replies as to the 50's are obviously generated from the respective internal perspective of one's perceived idyllic childhood, maybe more so in Jerry's explicit case at least. And not from a perspective taken outside of one's cultic cradle. I think this is where the term 'cult-ure' originates, because it is THAT important in the ability to manipulate people. I too long for the real and imagined pleasures of my childhood. I cannot find a decent frozen banana anywhere, like those we had at the beach. Hamburgers just don't taste the same, no matter what.

    My point being: perhaps try to ask what people of other circumstances, preferably adults, might have felt about the 50's, or any other period for that matter. Take yourselves out of your own head, put yourselves in someone else's shoes, before answering this question. I don't care what someones' childhood was like. My last Little League coach was a vicious, mean drunk, and I'm glad for many other's sake that someone had the decency to stab him to death, though it did me absolutely no good. Besides, he was a shitty coach to boot, all batting practice, no fielding practice. The fact that I hit a dramatic first inning grand slam (two outs, full count) against the perennial champs that year may likely have only been a coincidence. But I digress.
  6. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    Nope, I really did move it. I felt this was appropriate since this came from my thread about site policies. I will answer the question about the Group Think thread, back in that other thread.

    Indeed. Inasmuch as you have recently agreed that there is currently a downhill trend, I feel it must follow that there must have been a "peak" when times were better.

    I take exception to Marcilla's answer that it was during the reign of Alexander the Great. That was even before the invention of chocolate ice cream. And we all know life is worth nothing without chocolate ice cream. Not to mention central heating & air conditioning.

    And it's no fair for you to just sit around and take potshots at the rest of us who have answered your question. You have to answer it yourself.

    When do you say was the Peak of Western Civilization?
  7. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    It was something of a trick question Jerry. As such, I refuse to answer it ... until you give me a properly considered answer. But, maybe I consider the downward trend to have started with Abram's and Sarah's mocking laugh at God's providing her a child at such late age?
  8. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    It is very possible that different sub-groups might experience Peak Civilization at different times. For beneficiaries of Brown or Roe v. Wade, the best times might have been the '70's. You can't blame me for answering from the perspective of a white male.

    At least Abraham didn't carry out the ritual sacrificial murder of his firstborn child. This was apparently a progressive rebellion against an earlier custom.

    What's happening now, I suggest, is partly a consequence of our species' own cumulative success. We're running out of raw materials, and places to put our garbage and pollutants, just as the population is exploding. This would be a recipe for disaster even if we didn't have elite secret societies and conspiracies to worry about.

    Joe is constantly complaining about forces of cultural degradation. But this could be a continual process: the forces of cultural degradation are in a never ending battle against forces for progress. This doesn't even necessarily imply the concept that there was a time of Peak Civilization. Although I'm very comfortable with the view that forces of cultural degradation have recently been growing more powerful.
  9. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Too late, I already did. And besides you were even answering from the sentimental perspective of a child, not an adult.

    I assert that this is a core problem of a dominant subculture, especially whose lesser members feel constantly victimized by those uppity outsiders who want to garner some semblance of parity. Gaining essential parity with the statistical 'mean' of the dominant subculture means that significant members of the once sub-classes are now ahead of the below average dominants, who are profitably turned 'mean' by their Greek lettered betters.

    BTW, I only have one memory of the 50's and that was the perception of almost drowning, being knocked over repeatedly by boat wakes at the kiddie beach. Everyone laughed but me. Ha, ha, ha. So, the 50's sucked, and you wont change my mind.
  10. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    1950's? Idyllic childhoods? What say thee now heathens?

    A mass grave containing the remains of babies and young children has been discovered at a former Catholic orphanage in Ireland, government-appointed investigators announced Friday in a finding that confirmed a local historian's efforts to trace the fates of 800 children who perished at the facility.

    The judge-led Mother and Baby Homes Commission announced Friday that excavations at the site of the former Bon Secours Mother and Baby Home in Tuam, County Galway, had found an underground structure divided into 20 chambers containing "significant quantities of human remains."

    The commission said DNA analysis of selected remains confirmed the ages of the dead ranged from 35 weeks to 3 years old and were buried chiefly in the 1950s, when the facility was one of more than a dozen in Ireland offering shelter to orphans, unwed mothers and their children. The Tuam home closed in 1961. ...

  11. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    Who are you calling 'heathens'? This is the Postflavian Pastafarian teatime reading society and discussion club. No heathens here. Dead babies not our fault.

    Considering that you said it was a trick question, I'm not sure why you expected a completely serious answer.

    More about this "mass grave" story, and the "local historian" (actually, a citizen investigator, not an academic) here:


    This looks bad. Seems that the human remains were found in the septic system.

    Which underscores a point we've made here before. The Augustinian family system of the 1950's was enforced with measures of maximum cruelty, against nonconformists including "illegitimate" children and "fallen" women.

    All right, so maybe it drives home the point more forcefully than we've said before.

    So when has there ever been a time when you couldn't find stories about atrocities? And does that completely invalidate the concept that there ever was a "peak" of Western civilization?

    I gave you a somewhat more serious justification of my response above. And here's another historian's answer. I don't know whether you would say this is "properly considered" or not. But at any rate, Gibbon famously said:

    If a man were called to fix the period in the history of the world, during which the condition of the human race was most happy and prosperous, he would, without hesitation, name that which elapsed from the death of Domitian to the accession of Commodus. The vast extent of the Roman empire was governed by absolute power, under the guidance of virtue and wisdom. The armies were restrained by the firm but gentle hand of four successive emperors, whose characters and authority commanded involuntary respect. The forms of the civil administration were carefully preserved by Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, and the Antonines, who delighted in the image of liberty, and were pleased with considering themselves as the accountable ministers of the laws.
    Now here I am, saying that as great as things might have been then, they were even greater during the 1950's. We're talking about the greatest prosperity and happiness for the greatest number here. You think there weren't mass child graves hidden somewhere during the reigns of Domitian through Commodus? But nevertheless, Gibbon could see that Roman civilization had its peak time. And it wasn't the dissolute Republic under JC, it was the later Empire after Augustinian morality had whipped it into shape. So the peak of Western civilization up until Gibbon's time was ~81 to 192 AD. Who are we to disagree?

    And he was writing in ~1776, so he didn't consider that the British had yet equalled the Romans. I say the Americans have far surpassed the Romans or the British, and the new peak was 1950. Or if I'm permitted to give a range of dates as wide as Gibbon did, I would say from 1888 to 1999.

    So now you really have to tell us, Richard. No more evading the question and trying to make the rest of us look ridiculous. When do you say was the peak of Western civilization?
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  12. I concede that the 1950's was also a peak in Western society, from a US American standpoint, as measured by Jerry's criteria (median household income adjusted for inflation). I also agree about the time during the Romans, or more specifically, it was during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, the time in history when the head of the (Western) global empire was most concerned with stoic philosophy.

    Mr. Aurelius, however, was also the father of Commodus, and I think this is an example of how the drive to peak co-produces a drive to valley. The late 1990's gave the USA global domination as the singular superpower, an endless economic boom cycle, and the explosion of what we called at the time "the information superhighway." Then came the odyssey known as 2001.

    In conclusion, I would just like to point out that it was during the time of Alexander's campaign against Bessus when Alexander, as the new ruler of the Persian Empire, would have been offered faloodeh, a frozen delicacy given to Persian royalty at the time. Wikipedia contends that this delicacy was a notable early precursor to what we now know in the west as "chocolate ice cream"

  13. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    There is no substitute for the real thing. Chocolate Ice Cream is the best. It's bigly very very good. Fahloodeh, what is that. Ice water. Meh.

    America first. Alexander second.
  14. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    The use of the term 'heathen' was somewhat tongue-in-cheek -- and relativistic, however, this clearly does not absolve y'alls of guilt for these and other dead Christian babies, but for the grace of the anti-pasta god that condemned them, I could have been one of them Jerry, albeit in the Pacific Northwest. Then, at the tender age of 3 weeks I was transported in a blinding blizzard to within a relatively short distance of the first large scale USA nuclear accident, at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. I spent my first year smack dab between mad isotopes and mad Injuns at the local native reservation. But I survived. Thankfully, I found out later that Dick Eastman explained to these very Indians (not from India BTW) that they should blame the Jews, not the white man, for whatever troubled them. In any case, this all is probably one reason I don't like making reservations.

    Jerry, there are different categories of 'trick questions', and if the 'tricker' provides the category up front then the purpose of the trick question might be defeated. In this case, the 'trick' context was not to provide a foil for y'alls to make light of this topic.

    Here is where we can see yet more hypocrisy of our so-called conservatives today. Under Augustus, and his ilk, unwanted babies were indeed left outside for death "by exposure", but I'm guessing that this was more limited to the pregnancies of illicit marital affairs (high status matrons seeking revenge on their philandering husbands using their slaves), prostitutes, and infants with birth defects, etc.. High status maidens were generally married off at fairly early age, so as to produce more Roman 'citizens'.

    One has to wonder whether the movement towards marriages via 'romantic love' was a cultural degradation whose cynical purpose was to produce a bumper crop of New World Conquistadors. As such, the 'proper' Romano-Christian system allowed status males to have procreative sex with their Madonna wives, and recreational fun with their slaves and prostitutes. With the Liberal movement (Conspiracy) to Romantic Love, ironically inspired by the chivalric / troubadour movement ideal of unrequited Love, we eventually ended up with all these workarounds, sending illegitimately preggered women off to have orphan babies in the shadows, or to get coat hanger abortions in some alleyway.

    In the old days, people like me could have been put to could employment on some galley ship, and felt a sense of purpose, rowing important people to and fro. But no, all this damn liberalization eventually cause some to invent the steamship and the railroads. Then airliners. Hello, 9/11!!!! This is the result of Liberals .... and wayward Christians. Evangelicals are flying around on jetliners designed with Satanicly derived technologies. Jesus didn't want us to have anything more than donkeys and camels.

    But I digress, what was the topic?

    To most, some atrocities are clearly more acceptable that others, as the old saying goes: "Atrocities are in the eye of the beholder."

    Atrocities have little to do with peakiness of any period, I would guess, unless one can establish a correlation of atrocity frequency and amplitude with something particular about that period.

    Now you are narrowing in on the trick (or one of them). I will answer your rude question with another question. Is it possible that there was no peak qualified to be a peak? In the mountain naming business, there is supposed to be a height criteria that determines whether a particular geographical protuberance is a peak or a mount. Albeit this is occasionally disregarded, probably because some liberal decides that one or the other designation 'sounds' better.

    As so, could we yet be in a bigly valley, where all the seeming peaks and mounts therein are not worthy of consideration. and if we were all to don the ceremonial metal colander, including forcing the silly Martian do do so, we could attain the otherwise insurmountable heights.

    I accidentally melted my plastic pasta strainer on the stovetop the other day, so I was looking for a collander at the grocery store today. But they only had plastic ones, and Agent Orange Leaks hasn't forced production back to the USA yet, if ever.
    OK, but what about slavery ... again? Do you agree that the Roman0-Christian ideal of a Platonic caste system is preferable to modern Euro-American democratic liberalization. This, whether one calls the wee people serfs or slaves or whatever?

    What if we could have a Superinformation Highway instead of the "information superhighway"? The FSM uber alles!!!

    Ralph Ellis claims that Alexander was actually trying to rediscover the rumored library of the Egyptian pyramids, .... under the pyramidal Himalayan mountain, K2. The topographical typography is rather impressive, albeit turned exacted 90 degrees. One of the glaciers around K2 is named for a Savoy, and I'll bet he made some glacial chocolate ice cream.

    BTW, the Savoys are the current royalty of Italy, restored after being punished for their close association with the Italian Fascists. At one of their cathedrals is the famous Shroud of Turin, really a camera obscura photo (double exposure) made by Leonardo Da Vinci. The head of the image belongs to the wily Leonardo, while the body was from one of his anatomical study corpses.
  15. I'm not entirely certain I understand your question, Richard. Since you mentioned Plato, I'll begin with his vision, as I can best remember from an introduction to political philosophy course I took some 20+ several years ago.

    IIRC, Plato indicated that societies go through three phases of political development, each of which can be subdivided into phases where the structure works better, and then degrades (a noble aristocracy is only "rule by the best" so long as the nobility remains committed to training the next generation in being, well, noble; whereas when they slack off, the culture degrades into oligarchy, "rule by the few"). Therefore, I think Plato's answer would be not unlike the biblical, "to everything, there is a season."

    In platonic terms, the question, then, is not "what system is preferable," but rather, "which system is appropriate, given the cultural context?"

    The USA has existed under what has been called a "liberal democracy," but how accurate is that? As designed, the Speaker of the House of Representatives is "first among equals" of all US American (documented, cismasculine, white, property-owning) citizens, whereas the chief executive merely presides over the administration of the policies enacted "by the people." This clearly has not been the case since at least Andrew Jackson.

    So what have we lived under, since? An "elected monarchy?" :: shrugs :: It does seem that the last vestiges of the democratic illusion are falling away. At one time considered the "fourth estate," now even the news calls itself "fake"
  16. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    The oligarchs du jour usually consider that they are the "best of the day", no? The nobles are, more often than not, just the strongmen, or cabal of strongmen, who became the respective aristocrats du jour by seizing land and making the land ownership and resulting 'nobility' thereof hereditary, sans merit, no?

    In any case, at some point Plato articulates his ideal social scheme which, IIRC, is that of a caste system. Usually, but not always, castes are elaborated as hereditary, which is antithetical to traditional American egalitarian liberalism, which many wee Americans, today, are opposed to. And I claim is a product of the Catholic fifth column towards moving back (revanchism) to a hierarchical (caste) society that Traditional Catholicism and Caesaro-Romanism aspire to.

    Elsewhere, in my discussions of Fideler's work regarding Plato, one see the parallel aspects of Plato's input into Christianity, and I say this is no accident.

    As I have said all along, in other words, there is indeed a distinct disconnect between the rhetoric between American ideals and American reality. Is this a reason to go backwards to a hereditary caste system as the panicked, unthinking are aspiring to?

    If someone wants to articulate a non-hereditary caste system, as say Nicholas DeVere and others have, then I could accept this quite easily. In fact, maybe this is what we have been actually approaching here, without most realizing it. But if true, we have not yet figured out how to eliminate the influence of certain provocateurs. In any case, as far as I can tell Christianity's implementation of the caste system was only hereditary and was not dignified for the majority, even until late. To wit, such as the Spanish Civil War, in service of maintaining Catholic elite privilege against everyone else.
  17. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    When has the fourth estate called itself 'fake'? Maybe it is, but when have they called themselves such? This would be rather amazing, even if they were working directly for der Grop'n Fuhrer.
  18. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    How can it be rude for me to ask you to answer your own question? Or do you mean, it was rude for you to ask the question in the first place?

    Geometrically speaking, we are talking about a two-dimensional graph, in which time is the horizontal axis, and the height of Western Civilization (by some objective criterion) is the other axis.

    And, please note that we're talking about Western Civilization, which means that time before the start of the said Civilization is not relevant. In other words: you might try to argue that the greatest quantity of human dignity and equity was during paleolithic times, and I might agree with you. But it's off the chart, so it's beside the point.

    And we know that Western Civilization at its onset, was a pretty dismal affair. People had rotten teeth and poor general health due to low protein content of early civilized food, and the Lord had all the political power. People were being hacked to death in sword fights all the time. You've seen Game of Thrones.

    So the left end of our chart is just bad, very bad. It was just terrible. A disgrace.

    Also, the future is currently off the chart. It doesn't matter if there are bigly new heights in the distant future, when Marcilla wears her colander, or when warp drive is invented and we can get a new planet. All that matters is, we've already agreed that things are going downhill now.

    So both the right hand and the left hand of our chart are below some of the values in the middle. We are not in the middle of a valley, QED. There's a peak back there somewhere.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
  19. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Would you ask Donald Trump such a thing? That's why it is rude Jerry. Never ask an imperious person to answer their own question. ;)

    Yes, your graph format is correct. And yes, I only concern myself here with so-called Western Civilization. There might indeed be some better civilization and/or culture in place and time, but that is not the focus here, which is centered on the claim that there was indeed an apex, of statistical note, in late Western Civilization that was malevolently targeted for Cultural Degradation, by the very Freemasons (and Jesuits) that created the (American) construction only a few centuries prior. As such, perhaps the better question is why would such organizations destroy (or remodel) their own creation, as if God giving with one hand and taking with the other? God works in mysterious ways you know.

    I think you might be overstating matters, but generally I agree. No, I have not seen Game of Thrones.

    It used to be that Marcilla could pee where she likes, but nowth is depends upon the sovereign right of states to determine. I'm not totally sure about directionality, as it may be more of sideways movement. Albeit, I'm guessing that Trump, or President Banno-Pence, will deliver us into a very profitable (for some) and bloody war, the uber-clash of Culture(s) very soon.
    If you are still referring to the 50's (or anywhere else for that matter) then this is still all in the eye of the beholder. Pick any time that seems BAD to you, and I'll identify someone who thinks that your 50's peak was terrible. For one, I can easily claim so-called Traditionalists, such as fans of Evola and his manner of thinking. They consider everything about Modernism as being negative, even while hypocritically blaming the likes of Hitler on Modernity. Ironically, in some respects I might even agree with them, such as the commodification and monetization of Everything. We even monetize money for Dogod's sake.
  20. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    So now you're denying that things are getting worse, and instead claiming a steady plateau. So does that mean that we are living now at the optimum steady plateau of Western Civilization? A glass which is steadily not as full as we would like, but not empty either? If not, you must admit that some earlier time was better.

    If that is a better question, maybe we should start a new thread. One possible answer, of course, is that the Freemasons and Jesuits that created the American construction are not at all the same as the ones who are now degrading it. Perhaps (as I would say) those institutions had been infiltrated by liberal Protestants and freedom-loving agnostics at that time, and now they've sadly been completely recaptured by the reactionaries. Or perhaps (as Joe and Collectivist would say) they've been infiltrated now by the evil Jews. Or perhaps (as you say) it's all been part of the same grand plan.

    Even if it's all a part of a grand plan, we should be able to agree that things are changing for the worse. The problem is, to provide convincing evidence as to which of the above theories is correct?

    I forgot to mention that from the point of view of clean air, wild animals, and the integrity of Nature, it's been a 100% downhill slide since the Paleolithic. In the end, that might turn out to be the most important evaluative criterion.

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