I hope that you merely copied this aspect and not really "moved" it?In a renewed quest to maintain ordered discussion on the Forum, I've moved this topic to its own thread.
Nope, I really did move it. I felt this was appropriate since this came from my thread about site policies. I will answer the question about the Group Think thread, back in that other thread.I hope that you merely copied this aspect and not really "moved" it?
Indeed. Inasmuch as you have recently agreed that there is currently a downhill trend, I feel it must follow that there must have been a "peak" when times were better.But I digress.
It was something of a trick question Jerry. As such, I refuse to answer it ... until you give me a properly considered answer. But, maybe I consider the downward trend to have started with Abram's and Sarah's mocking laugh at God's providing her a child at such late age?And it's no fair for you to just sit around and take potshots at the rest of us who have answered your question. You have to answer it yourself.
When do you say was the Peak of Western Civilization?
Too late, I already did. And besides you were even answering from the sentimental perspective of a child, not an adult.You can't blame me for answering from the perspective of a white male.
Who are you calling 'heathens'? This is the Postflavian Pastafarian teatime reading society and discussion club. No heathens here. Dead babies not our fault.What say thee now heathens?
Considering that you said it was a trick question, I'm not sure why you expected a completely serious answer.you were even answering from the sentimental perspective of a child, not an adult.
I gave you a somewhat more serious justification of my response above. And here's another historian's answer. I don't know whether you would say this is "properly considered" or not. But at any rate, Gibbon famously said:It was something of a trick question Jerry. As such, I refuse to answer it ... until you give me a properly considered answer.
There is no substitute for the real thing. Chocolate Ice Cream is the best. It's bigly very very good. Fahloodeh, what is that. Ice water. Meh.Wikipedia contends that this delicacy was a notable early precursor to what we now know in the west as "chocolate ice cream"
The use of the term 'heathen' was somewhat tongue-in-cheek -- and relativistic, however, this clearly does not absolve y'alls of guilt for these and other dead Christian babies, but for the grace of the anti-pasta god that condemned them, I could have been one of them Jerry, albeit in the Pacific Northwest. Then, at the tender age of 3 weeks I was transported in a blinding blizzard to within a relatively short distance of the first large scale USA nuclear accident, at the Hanford Nuclear Reservation. I spent my first year smack dab between mad isotopes and mad Injuns at the local native reservation. But I survived. Thankfully, I found out later that Dick Eastman explained to these very Indians (not from India BTW) that they should blame the Jews, not the white man, for whatever troubled them. In any case, this all is probably one reason I don't like making reservations.Who are you calling 'heathens'? This is the Postflavian Pastafarian teatime reading society and discussion club. No heathens here. Dead babies not our fault.
Jerry, there are different categories of 'trick questions', and if the 'tricker' provides the category up front then the purpose of the trick question might be defeated. In this case, the 'trick' context was not to provide a foil for y'alls to make light of this topic.Considering that you said it was a trick question, I'm not sure why you expected a completely serious answer.
Here is where we can see yet more hypocrisy of our so-called conservatives today. Under Augustus, and his ilk, unwanted babies were indeed left outside for death "by exposure", but I'm guessing that this was more limited to the pregnancies of illicit marital affairs (high status matrons seeking revenge on their philandering husbands using their slaves), prostitutes, and infants with birth defects, etc.. High status maidens were generally married off at fairly early age, so as to produce more Roman 'citizens'.Which underscores a point we've made here before. The Augustinian family system of the 1950's was enforced with measures of maximum cruelty, against nonconformists including "illegitimate" children and "fallen" women.
To most, some atrocities are clearly more acceptable that others, as the old saying goes: "Atrocities are in the eye of the beholder."All right, so maybe it drives home the point more forcefully than we've said before.
So when has there ever been a time when you couldn't find stories about atrocities? And does that completely invalidate the concept that there ever was a "peak" of Western civilization?
Now you are narrowing in on the trick (or one of them). I will answer your rude question with another question. Is it possible that there was no peak qualified to be a peak? In the mountain naming business, there is supposed to be a height criteria that determines whether a particular geographical protuberance is a peak or a mount. Albeit this is occasionally disregarded, probably because some liberal decides that one or the other designation 'sounds' better.So now you really have to tell us, Richard. No more evading the question and trying to make the rest of us look ridiculous. When do you say was the peak of Western civilization?
OK, but what about slavery ... again? Do you agree that the Roman0-Christian ideal of a Platonic caste system is preferable to modern Euro-American democratic liberalization. This, whether one calls the wee people serfs or slaves or whatever?I concede that the 1950's was also a peak in Western society, from a US American standpoint, as measured by Jerry's criteria (median household income adjusted for inflation). I also agree about the time during the Romans, or more specifically, it was during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, the time in history when the head of the (Western) global empire was most concerned with stoic philosophy.
What if we could have a Superinformation Highway instead of the "information superhighway"? The FSM uber alles!!!and the explosion of what we called at the time "the information superhighway."
Ralph Ellis claims that Alexander was actually trying to rediscover the rumored library of the Egyptian pyramids, .... under the pyramidal Himalayan mountain, K2. The topographical typography is rather impressive, albeit turned exacted 90 degrees. One of the glaciers around K2 is named for a Savoy, and I'll bet he made some glacial chocolate ice cream.In conclusion, I would just like to point out that it was during the time of Alexander's campaign against Bessus when Alexander, as the new ruler of the Persian Empire, would have been offered faloodeh, a frozen delicacy given to Persian royalty at the time. Wikipedia contends that this delicacy was a notable early precursor to what we now know in the west as "chocolate ice cream"
The oligarchs du jour usually consider that they are the "best of the day", no? The nobles are, more often than not, just the strongmen, or cabal of strongmen, who became the respective aristocrats du jour by seizing land and making the land ownership and resulting 'nobility' thereof hereditary, sans merit, no?IIRC, Plato indicated that societies go through three phases of political development, each of which can be subdivided into phases where the structure works better, and then degrades (a noble aristocracy is only "rule by the best" so long as the nobility remains committed to training the next generation in being, well, noble; whereas when they slack off, the culture degrades into oligarchy, "rule by the few"). Therefore, I think Plato's answer would be not unlike the biblical, "to everything, there is a season."
As I have said all along, in other words, there is indeed a distinct disconnect between the rhetoric between American ideals and American reality. Is this a reason to go backwards to a hereditary caste system as the panicked, unthinking are aspiring to?The USA has existed under what has been called a "liberal democracy," but how accurate is that? As designed, the Speaker of the House of Representatives is "first among equals" of all US American (documented, cismasculine, white, property-owning) citizens, whereas the chief executive merely presides over the administration of the policies enacted "by the people." This clearly has not been the case since at least Andrew Jackson.
So what have we lived under, since? An "elected monarchy?" :: shrugs :: It does seem that the last vestiges of the democratic illusion are falling away. At one time considered the "fourth estate," now even the news calls itself "fake"
When has the fourth estate called itself 'fake'? Maybe it is, but when have they called themselves such? This would be rather amazing, even if they were working directly for der Grop'n Fuhrer.At one time considered the "fourth estate," now even the news calls itself "fake"
How can it be rude for me to ask you to answer your own question? Or do you mean, it was rude for you to ask the question in the first place?I will answer your rude question with another question.
Geometrically speaking, we are talking about a two-dimensional graph, in which time is the horizontal axis, and the height of Western Civilization (by some objective criterion) is the other axis.As so, could we yet be in a bigly valley, where all the seeming peaks and mounts therein are not worthy of consideration. and if we were all to don the ceremonial metal colander, including forcing the silly Martian do do so, we could attain the otherwise insurmountable heights.
Would you ask Donald Trump such a thing? That's why it is rude Jerry. Never ask an imperious person to answer their own question.How can it be rude for me to ask you to answer your own question? Or do you mean, it was rude for you to ask the question in the first place?
Yes, your graph format is correct. And yes, I only concern myself here with so-called Western Civilization. There might indeed be some better civilization and/or culture in place and time, but that is not the focus here, which is centered on the claim that there was indeed an apex, of statistical note, in late Western Civilization that was malevolently targeted for Cultural Degradation, by the very Freemasons (and Jesuits) that created the (American) construction only a few centuries prior. As such, perhaps the better question is why would such organizations destroy (or remodel) their own creation, as if God giving with one hand and taking with the other? God works in mysterious ways you know.Geometrically speaking, we are talking about a two-dimensional graph, in which time is the horizontal axis, and the height of Western Civilization (by some objective criterion) is the other axis.
And, please note that we're talking about Western Civilization, which means that time before the start of the said Civilization is not relevant. In other words: you might try to argue that the greatest quantity of human dignity and equity was during paleolithic times, and I might agree with you. But it's off the chart, so it's beside the point.
I think you might be overstating matters, but generally I agree. No, I have not seen Game of Thrones.And we know that Western Civilization at its onset, was a pretty dismal affair. People had rotten teeth and poor general health due to low protein content of early civilized food, and the Lord had all the political power. People were being hacked to death in sword fights all the time. You've seen Game of Thrones.
It used to be that Marcilla could pee where she likes, but nowth is depends upon the sovereign right of states to determine. I'm not totally sure about directionality, as it may be more of sideways movement. Albeit, I'm guessing that Trump, or President Banno-Pence, will deliver us into a very profitable (for some) and bloody war, the uber-clash of Culture(s) very soon.Also, the future is currently off the chart. It doesn't matter if there are bigly new heights in the distant future, when Marcilla wears her colander, or when warp drive is invented and we can get a new planet. All that matters is, we've already agreed that things are going downhill now.
If you are still referring to the 50's (or anywhere else for that matter) then this is still all in the eye of the beholder. Pick any time that seems BAD to you, and I'll identify someone who thinks that your 50's peak was terrible. For one, I can easily claim so-called Traditionalists, such as fans of Evola and his manner of thinking. They consider everything about Modernism as being negative, even while hypocritically blaming the likes of Hitler on Modernity. Ironically, in some respects I might even agree with them, such as the commodification and monetization of Everything. We even monetize money for Dogod's sake.So both the right hand and the left hand of our chart are below some of the values in the middle. We are not in the middle of a valley, QED. There's a peak back there somewhere.
So now you're denying that things are getting worse, and instead claiming a steady plateau. So does that mean that we are living now at the optimum steady plateau of Western Civilization? A glass which is steadily not as full as we would like, but not empty either? If not, you must admit that some earlier time was better.If you are still referring to the 50's (or anywhere else for that matter) then this is still all in the eye of the beholder.
If that is a better question, maybe we should start a new thread. One possible answer, of course, is that the Freemasons and Jesuits that created the American construction are not at all the same as the ones who are now degrading it. Perhaps (as I would say) those institutions had been infiltrated by liberal Protestants and freedom-loving agnostics at that time, and now they've sadly been completely recaptured by the reactionaries. Or perhaps (as Joe and Collectivist would say) they've been infiltrated now by the evil Jews. Or perhaps (as you say) it's all been part of the same grand plan.There might indeed be some better civilization and/or culture in place and time, but that is not the focus here, which is centered on the claim that there was indeed an apex, of statistical note, in late Western Civilization that was malevolently targeted for Cultural Degradation, by the very Freemasons (and Jesuits) that created the (American) construction only a few centuries prior. As such, perhaps the better question is why would such organizations destroy (or remodel) their own creation, as if God giving with one hand and taking with the other? God works in mysterious ways you know.