What's the deal about John Bartram?

Richard Stanley

Are you thinking of savoir?
Yes. The 'V' and 'B' and 'P' have well known lingual affinities. In Spanish 'saber' means 'to know'. In Latin, 'sapiens' means 'wise' ... and 'discrete'.

When you have taught one to swim, you have hopefully 'saved' him or her from drowning in the future.

If you have taught another the mysteries of existence, then you have saved that one from a hell of repeating the same mistakes, whether here in metaphorical Hell, or maybe, here in metaphorical Heaven.

Of course, as the wiser gnostics and philosophers gnew, and as the scientists today know, it is all a still unending process, and hence their constant need to reformulate their respective models of Reality. And some old, impatient, greedy, and/or power hungry scrooges decided to gum up the works along the way.

Richard Stanley

You didn't really think I would reveal the whole enchilada did you? Maybe I was just testing your Faith? If you want the better answer, maybe after you have written "Is it Wisdom or Mystique or Both?" 7 times ala Bart Simpson.
Online Etymology Dictionary gives no common root between the two. Going back as far as the Proto Indo-European, the root of "savior" is *sol- meaning "whole," whereas the root of savoire (also sapient) is *sep- or "taste, perceive."

But please, I'm dying to taste the whole enchilada :: rimshot, followed by groaning ::

Richard Stanley

Your prerequisite instructions were to type the words a specific number of times.

But in any case, how can one be 'whole' if one is 'ignorant', i.e. incomplete of knowledge and wisdom?

Jerry Russell

Staff member
Getting back to Bartram, I have been looking further into his ideas about the authorship of the New Testament. At this page:


Bartram is saying that the "Q" source originates from Bardaisan. According to Wiki, this prolific author lived in the region of Edessa from ~154 to 222 AD, and was closely affiliated with the royal court of the kingdom of Osroene until the last king, Abgar IX, was overthrown by the Romans in ~212 AD. Wiki says that Bardaisan was the founder of the Bardaisanites, and that his theology was a synthesis of Christian, occult and gnostic teachings. He is said to have been a major influence on Manichaeism.

In support of his analysis, Bartram points out that the angelic annunciation of the birth of Jesus (Luke 1:26-38, Matt 1:18-25) seems similar to Josephus' description of the birth of Izates in Antiquities book XX. Bartram refers to Eisenman's conclusion that Josephus' royal family of Adiabene (Helena, Monobazius and Izates) is one and the same as the royal family of Edessa, the capital of the kingdom of Osroene. Bartram also mentions that this same family is mentioned in several more odd parables in various sources.

Ralph Ellis, looking at the same odd collection of facts, concludes that Izates was an Edessan king who had collaborated with the Zealots in the Jewish War.

However, for some reason Bartram concludes that Izates is fictional, and that Bardaisan needed to invent "Q" in conjunction with some political agenda involving the new Roman government of Edessa. No matter how carefully I read Bartram's page, I can't understand what this motive would be.

I find myself puzzled not only at the micro-level, but also at a macro-level, about Bartram's argument. Basically, we only know of Bardaisan's existence because he is quoted in other authors such as Origen, Porphyry and Eusebius. Bartram aruges that the works of all those authors were late frauds, so I don't understand why he is willing to trust them regarding any inferences about Bardaisan.

Richard Stanley

I apparently had glossed over that Josephus' other lineage, besides the Hasmoneans, was that of Adiabene / Edessa. Not so incidentally, Edessa (Urfa) is where Abraham was said to originate (as opposed to that other Ur). And this is the neighborhood, supposedly, of the Mittani, related to the 18th Dynasty of Egypt by marriage. And this is where the Crusaders made a pit stop on the way to Jerusalem for the First Crusade. And more related stuff.

Regarding Bardaisan, I think that perhaps this is where Bartram might be better sticking to his knitting, as he likes to complain about others, but perhaps it is all related. St. Augustine was a Manichean after all.

Aspiring Author

New Member
John Bartram has disappeared. I tried to find him on Twitter (wanted to reference him) and then discovered he had disappeared off the internet. Weird.