The pole in the cab

[Ruby Gray]

I found a Lincoln scale drawing of their 1990 Continental Town Car, which was 20 feet plus an inch or two long.

Drawing in the pole to this scale, using its support points of rear seat back and lower windshield frame, and extending to the front of the hood as Lloyde specifically demonstrated, proves that this pole was only about 12 feet long. Nowhere near as long as a lightpole.

Of course, this would still be a very long pole to come smashing through your car!

And its diameter was no larger than the small hole at the base of the windshield, and the circular impressions on the seat leather.

 

[Ruby Gray]

The blurb on Chandler's video above:

Lloyd England’s taxicab is evidence that the downing of the light poles was a real-time event that could not have been staged ahead of time. This single piece of evidence therefore discredits any theory that eliminates a large plane flying along the path of the downed light poles. CIT responded by interviewing Lloyd England and accusing him of being an accomplice to the staging of the scene based on supposed contradictions in his story. This section examines all the fragments of the first two light poles and determines which piece actually hit the taxi, providing in a factual basis for evaluating Lloyd England’s story.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Highly unlikely!! I've been sincerely trying to dialog with him for 6 years.

Fair enough. Most likely the end result will be more of the same. We keep tilting at the same windmill, for the benefit of.... who? McKee's audience of 40 subscribers and 81 views of the video?

Before I go back and make another comment, I want to make sure we're on the same page about something.

Lloyde England is clearly saying that his cab was hit by a massive light pole, with the big base end going in first.

But he's not necessarily agreeing, that it was the exact same light pole as the one staged in the photograph of his cab at the bridge?

His cab was hit by a different pole. That is, the one fired at him from the helicopter, as his car was passing by the cemetery. He never said exactly how big that pole was.

Judging from the damage, and from the fact that Lloyde and one other person were able to lift the pole out of the cab: the pole from the helicopter was very likely a bit smaller than the one on display at the bridge.

If this is what you're saying, it's a possible point of agreement that you share with both Coste & McKee. It is impossible that the pole shown in the photograph at the bridge, was ever lodged in Lloyde's taxicab. Either Lloyde never said it was (which would be your position and also Coste's) or else he was lying (which is McKee's position, but you would agree that the alleged incident never happened exactly as McKee pictures it.)

 

[Ruby Gray]

I want to make sure we're on the same page about something.

Lloyde England is clearly saying that his cab was hit by a massive light pole, with the big base end going in first.

No!!
When Lloyde's taxi was hit by a pole, as he said, he "never saw where it came from".
He did not "know" it was a "lightpole" until they told him what they wanted him to believe.

In his phone interview with Jeff Hill in 2011, Lloyde said he had been told the plane cut off a pole, carried it on its wing, then dropped it on his car as it was going over him.

Try sketching that scenario! You cannot make it happen, at either location!

In his TV news speech and written testimony, Detective Don Fortunato stated that as he arrived at the Pentagon, he encountered Lloyde's taxi which had been "hit by pieces of pole apparently". Probably he told Lloyde this twaddle while next to the cemetery, to prime him for what he would soon encounter when they met again on top of the bridge.

Lloyde knew nothing of the dimensions of the pole next to which his cab was later photographed, when he was removing the pole.

If you or I suddenly had a 12 foot pole smash through our car and into the rear seat, extending out another 6 feet, we would quite rightly say that pole was "large"!! Not compared with lightpoles, but compared with the length of anything supposed to be inside our car.

Lloyde never specifically said that the pole inside his car was a 36' lightpole.
That was an assumption made by anyone who saw the taxi juxtaposed to the lightpole.

In fact, he said that the base of the pole "was outside, standing up, in concrete".

He also stated, when shown a photo of that lightpole next to his cab,

"See this the long piece. See the end on it? IT DIDN'T HAVE A END ON IT!! Yeah, this the piece that was IN THE GROUND."

(I tried to insert photos, but a "Security Error" box comes up.)

However, in response to Ranke's strident demand about the length of "a pole, a WHOLE pole," when he interrupted Lloyde who was about to tell him the length of the pole in his cab, Lloyde correctly stated that a WHOLE lightpole was about 36-40 feet long, which could be verified by measuring one.

Lloyde was a qualified auto mechanic. He knew that the length of the pole inside his cab was about 7 feet.
He was not so stupid as to think that the length of the hood was another 30 feet!!

This was a tragedy of misunderstanding on both sides. Also of faulty transcription of his words. I had to slow down the audio and listen to it multiple times, to catch every word he said, in my transcription.
McKee was very sloppy about accurately quoting Lloyde.

Lloyde did make a sketch, and give several demonstrations on video of how far the pole extended, out to the front of the hood.
On a scaled drawing of the 1990 Lincoln Continental Town Car, from rear seat to bumper is 12 feet.

 

[Ruby Gray]

I think I've worked out why I couldn't post photos. I had the "Link" option checked.

Nope, tried again but still no go.
I'll try again later.

 

[Jerry Russell]

No!!
When Lloyde's taxi was hit by a pole, as he said, he "never saw where it came from".

Thanks for clearing that up!! Let me try again. Could I correctly post the following:

Lloyde England is clearly saying that his cab was hit by a massive pole, with the smaller end going in first.​

​

But he's not necessarily agreeing, that it was the exact same pole as the light pole staged in the photograph of his cab at the bridge.​

​

His cab might have been hit by a different pole. Perhaps it was fired at him from a helicopter, as his car was passing by the cemetery. Lloyde said the length of the pole inside his cab was about 7 feet. He even made a sketch, showing the entire length of the pole was about 12 feet.​

​

This is a possible point of agreement that is shared by Ruby Gray, Coste and McKee. It is impossible that the 30 foot pole shown in the photograph at the bridge, was ever lodged in Lloyde's taxicab. Either Lloyde never said it was (which would be Gray's position and also Coste's) or else he was lying (which is McKee's position.)​

​

(I tried to insert photos, but a "Security Error" box comes up.)

Odd. Seems to work fine for me in link mode...

... and in upload mode:

 

[Ruby Gray]

Lloyde England is clearly saying that his cab was hit by a massive pole, with the smaller end going in first.

Again, I think not.
This would be a major sticking point for anyone presented with the concept of the pole being fired through the cab.

A tapered, bent pole could not work!

The pole to Lloyde was certainly "long," but he never used the word "massive".
That he and one other man could pull it out, without it dropping on the hood, confirms that it was not "massive".

The hole through which the pole entered the windshield is the tiny one at the lower edge of the glass.
Yay image insertion is working tonight!
The big hole in the centre would have been caused by the action of dislodging the pole as they removed it.

Lloyde and Craig Ranke both point to this small, 4'' hole.

The pole then speared through the dashboard, knocked the passenger seat off its hinge and into the rear, impacted the rear seat back, apparently bounced against the steel firewall and impacted again as the forward momentum of the car caught it.
There are 2 circular imprints on the leather.

McKee and Ruff vehemently deny this, for some unknown reason. The marks are there; they are self-evident.

Xander Arena adamantly disagrees with me, being closely associated with them, and undoubtedly influenced thereby.
Xander insists that the pole could not have "bounced" then hit again.
Irrationally, Xander believes that the seats were both severely damaged by someone getting in there and "kicking" them!!

But it is a matter of physics. Several vectors of force were at play. The forward motion of the cab, the opposite motion of the pole, the huge mass (m1) of the cab versus the tiny mass (m2) of the hollow pole.

Had the cab been stationary, obviously the pole would have bounced off the firewall.
Its forward energy had largely already been dissipated by its path through glass, dashboard and front seat.
But as the force (= m2a2) exerted on the rear seat by the pole was much less than the force exerted on the pole by the forward-moving cab (= m1a1), and the pole had lost much of its momentum, it would not have bounced far nor fast before the car's forward momentum impacted with it again.

Anyway, there are absolutely 2 circular impressions on the seat leather!

The cushion is also deformed, revealing the deformed steel of the firewall behind it.
There is no way that any person could have inflicted this damage on the cab with his feet!

The pole was subjected to several forces in that split second of impact, which would have deformed it and bent it along its length.

But it started off straight.
And it was not tapered.

The impressions on the rear seat match the dimensions of the entry hole.
The impressions are of a hollow, perfectly circular tube, cut cleanly across.
Certainly not jagged like the end of that downed lightpole.
And not flattened in cross section like a lamp support arm, whose dimensions are 2'' x 3''.

That photo you showed was from Coste and Chandler, was it not? They have done a lengthy presentation where they argue that it was a support arm from Downed Pole #2, NOT #1, that hit the taxi.

There are MANY errors in that presentation, where their flawed identification of electrical flex from inside the pole, as a solid object, leaves me stunned at their poor skills, obstinacy and commitment to Lying For 9/11 Truth!

So the lightpoles have absolutely nothing to do with the pole that speared the taxi.

This is where everyone comes unstuck.
Those photos of the taxi next to a downed lightpole have had a profound and lasting effect in this psy-op.
Either they have convinced the masses of the government story.
Or the absurdity of that scenario has convinced truthers that Lloyde was a liar.

Yet Lloyde himself absolutely denied, in triplicate, that the lightpole hit his cab.

Then he placed his finger on a bent, circular, clean-cut non-tapered pole laying on the far side of the taxi, and said,

"THIS shows the pole HERE!"

 

[Jerry Russell]

The pole to Lloyde was certainly "long," but he never used the word "massive".
That he and one other man could pull it out, without it dropping on the hood, confirms that it was not "massive".

OK, he never used the word "massive". But didn't he complain about how heavy it was, and difficult to lift out of the car?

 

[Ruby Gray]

But McKee couldn't have anything to do with whatever is going on at your YT channel, right?

Surely not.
Who knows what it can be.

The focus and resolution of that video are very poor, so I can't make out what Lloyde is pointing to.

We've had this discussion before, when you did concede that he was pointing to the pole on the far side of the taxi.
The lamp arm is down below his hand in front of the car here. But his finger points to the pole on the other side.

In your mind, is it possible that the "arm" is the pole that Lloyde found in the taxi? Or is it some other pole, left behind at the cemetery site?

Certainly not in my mind, but you know how obsessed and peculiar I am!
The arm cannot have been "THE pole" because (as I've just explained)

* Lloyde was 1,200 feet north of the lightpole
* Bent poles are not aerodynamic
* Lamp arms are flattened in cross section
* Dimensions of that cross section are 2'' x 3'', I checked
* Lamp arms are tapered
* Entry hole & impressions on rear seat are the same size & perfectly round.
* So a straight, circular pole of 4" diameter speared Lloyde's taxi.
* No relationship to any part of any lightpole.

 

[Ruby Gray]

OK, he never used the word "massive". But didn't he complain about how heavy it was, and difficult to lift out of the car?

If he said that, please produce the quote.

He definitely did say,
"I know it's long!"

Yes, 12 feet long.

The massive weight of a lightpole was emphasised by CIT. Especially by Craig, who went to the VDOT yard and lifted one.

But Lloyde's pole was not a lightpole.

I could lift a 12 foot metal pole, but pulling it out of my car would be easier with someone to help.

 

[Jerry Russell]

you did concede that he was pointing to the pole on the far side of the taxi.

Did I concede that? Must have been a passing and most uncharacteristic moment of agreeability.

But I do see that there's a third pole visible in the video clip at 2:40. It appears to be well beyond the back of the cab, and it's visible just over the hood. It's hard to tell how long it is, but it appears to be badly bent.

So if Lloyde pointed to any lamp pole whatsoever, would you then maintain that he was mistaken in that identification?

Certainly not in my mind, but you know how obsessed and peculiar I am!
The arm cannot have been "THE pole" because (as I've just explained)...

Thanks for the clarification.

None of this is completely convincing to me, because...

If the cab was moved by the towtruck, then the pole might have also been moved by that same truck.
Pole could have been bent when it hit the cab. Or, a slight bend might not cause severe aerodynamic problems.
Entry hole & upholstery hole don't look so round to me.
Flying object could blow holes larger than the object itself, owing to force transmitted through glass or fabric.

 

[Jerry Russell]

If he said that, please produce the quote.

LOL I was afraid you'd say that. I'll look around. But you're the expert, and I'm probably imagining things.

 

[Ruby Gray]

If the cab was moved by the towtruck, then the pole might have also been moved by that same truck.

As I have always maintained.
The towtruck brought the 2 poles with it and took them off the back of the trailer. Hence their location.
In his pre-interview with Russell Pickering, Lloyde said that after the pole hit, he had to swerve to miss "the other piece of pole in the road".
Det Fortunato said the cab had been hit by "pieces of pole". Plural.

Pole could have been bent when it hit the cab.

Is there an echo in this room ?? ...

Entry hole & upholstery hole don't look so round to me.

Are you looking at the wrong "upholstery hole"?
The tear with yellow foam showing through is at the bottom left of the lower circular mark, which is round and much bigger.
There is another identical sized circular impression just above and to the right of that one.
Glass rarely produces exactly round holes.
But the object that made those 2 circles, would have fitted through the entry hole in the windshield.
A lightpole would never have gone through that!

Flying object could blow holes larger than the object itself, owing to force transmitted through glass or fabric.

True of course.
But why would a lamp support arm, or any part of a lightpole, have been used 1,200 feet up the road from the downed lightpoles?
And the 2 impressions on the upholstery are still circular.
Why would they risk using an unbalanced, bent, eccentric shaped projectile which would have unpredictable flight characteristics?
This was a precision shot. They couldn't afford to miss. The towtruck, trailer, white van, detective, decoy cab, bridge scene and SecDef's bodyguard were primed, rehearsed and waiting.

I've researched the dimensions of all components of VDOT lightpoles. None of them is the same shape as those 2 poles on the far side of the taxi.
No pole that had been cut off from a lightpole by a 550mph jet wing would have that perfectly circular cross section with a clean cut end.

What else could those 2 poles be, then?

 

[Ruby Gray]

Did I concede that? Must have been a passing and most uncharacteristic moment of agreeability.

Ha ha!!

So if Lloyde pointed to any lamp pole whatsoever, would you then maintain that he was mistaken in that identification?

But he didn't though, did he?

He SAID it was a lightpole, because that's what he was told.
He said it wasn't the lamp part.

He really didn't get a good look at it.
He had pulled the pole out by 9.42,
fallen on his back,
got up,
been pushed down
then hustled off by the detective,
spent about 12 minutes walking along the highway
and talking to Marc Vandeveer,
before appearing next to his cab again at 9.55.
Fortunato then had him call a towtruck, leave his cab behind with a yellow legal pad note tucked in the window,
and head off home by about 10.00.

Lloyde said that one of his police friends told him where the pole had been taken to, but he never went to see it, and he couldn't remember where that was.

 

[Jerry Russell]

I've researched the dimensions of all components of VDOT lightpoles. None of them is the same shape as those 2 poles on the far side of the taxi.

This is even more nuanced than I've ever imagined.

You're saying that the tableau around the taxicab includes the 30 foot bent pole (including uprooted base), the 12 foot lamp support arm, PLUS two other pole-shaped objects that were never really any part of any real lamp pole?

Amazing attention to detail by those feds, if this is correct. And in the final analysis, Ruby, you usually are!

He had pulled the pole out by 9.42,
fallen on his back,

That's what I remembered, that made me think the pole must have been heavy. Lloyde fell over backwards trying to support it! Sounds heavy to me. It wasn't made of light gauge aluminum like a pop-top coca cola can.

 

[Ruby Gray]

Steve Riskus's first photo of the Pentagon, within 1 minute of the explosion.
Showing the spot where Lloyde's taxi was hit, with skid marks and sparkly glass fragments.

I've been having fun with a new tool, "Forensically".
It identifies and enhances anomalies in photos.

So the skid marks and sparkly bits show up extra well here.

Then something occurred to me.
There's this one guy dressed in black, black hair, parked on the left shoulder of the northbound lanes, "just a few feet away from a taxi", getting out of his car before anyone else dared to ...

Is this the earliest photo of Father Stephen McGraw?

 

[WinstonSmith]

I think I've posted this previously, but it's pertinent to current discussion.

Here is CIT's entire collection of taxi photos, documenting the damage both inside and out, from 9/11/2001, and also most significantly, from their 2008 trip to Lloyde's farm where he had stored the cab.

Despite their own excellent evidence showing how extensive the damage was, Craig Ranke still denied that any of this was caused by a pole spearing the cab through the windshield, dashboard, front seat, rear seat and firewall.

He even referred to those who saw this extensive damage as compatible with a projectile pole impacting a cab moving at 50 mph in the opposite direction, as "Disgusting!"

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cit/cit-exclusive-images-of-cab-released-t439.html

I'm seeing the circular scrape mark caused by the pole base corner, leading right to the rear of the taxi. Do you think he bumped it while fishtailing? If not, what caused the scrape?

 

[Ruby Gray]

I'm seeing the circular scrape mark caused by the pole base corner, leading right to the rear of the taxi. Do you think he bumped it while fishtailing? If not, what caused the scrape?

Hi Winston, nice to see you back here!
I haven't heard from you in a while. I hope you haven't been trying to message me on FB and thinking I'm ignoring you. I had to delete Messenger because it was taking up too much space on my phone, then since I tried to reinstall it, it refuses to work.

Anyway, my position is that Lloyde and his taxi were not on the bridge at 9:37 a.m.
As he stated, and as 7 seconds of an amateur video now prove, he was driving south along the cemetery wall when the plane flew in front of him, and a pole smashed through his windshield.

Here is Lloyde walking back to his cab on that video, from the white van parked in front of it.
Lloyde said that he flagged down a white van and asked its driver to help him remove the pole.

A zoomed view of Lloyde, compared with a high resolution photo taken of him several minutes later.

A zoomed view of the taxi when Lloyde was standing in front of the hood, about to remove the pole.
Distinguishing features are the general shape of the 1990 Lincoln Continental Town Car, the white Capitol Cabs rooflight, the white Capitol Cabs logo on the rear door, and even the interior details of the driver's door can be determined.

The next moment, we can see the diagonal pole has been shoved upwards, breaking out the glass in the centre of the windshield. Now there is a bright reflection off the concrete wall behind, through the tinted glass.

Lloyde said that as he removed the pole, there was an explosion behind him. This was the fireball captured by Daryl Donley, and also on timestamped live feed from NBC and CBS.

The camera suddenly swings back around to the Pentagon at this point.
This gives us a fairly accurate time of 9:42:45 a.m.** for the pole being removed, +/- depending on the exact start time of the TV sources.

** EDIT :​

The time that the pole was dislodged was 9:42:06 a.m., not 9:42:45.​

The camera then turns towards the bridge, and a few seconds after these images of Lloyde and his cab beside the cemetery, we see that there is an identical black vehicle parked across the lanes on top of the bridge.

Lloyde was sent packing by a detective, then his taxi was winched onto an orange triple axle trailer behind a waiting Ford F-450 towtruck. (We've been through this before. I checked, and found that electric winches can do this in less than 30 seconds.)

So Lloyde cannot have been responsible for the scrape on the road, and that huge lightpole had nothing to do with him.

 

[Ruby Gray]

So I believe that scrape on the road was caused by the 2 occupants of the decoy cab, dragging the pole across from its position against the concrete divider, then laying the lighter top end across the hood of their taxi.

Jerry has been very busy lately, sorting the many topics in this unwieldy thread, into sub-headings.

Here is a link to the page discussing Yvette Buzard, the only person to have testified to seeing the lightpole on top of a taxi, on the bridge.

This was the reason for the decoy cab. To hold the place until Lloyde's damaged cab could be relocated there, and staged for the photos. To fool anyone who happened to look in that direction, away from the spectacle at the Pentagon.

Thread 'Yvette Buzard and the decoy cab?' https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/yvette-buzard-and-the-decoy-cab.2746/

 

[Ruby Gray]

Then the pole continued through to the rear seat back.
Here, it hit so forcefully that it made a considerable dent in the steel firewall behind, deformed and broke through the leather and foam lining, and left a neat 4'' circular imprint on the leather.
This is just to the right of centre, and at the join between seat and upright.

The pole then rebounded, and was impacted again by the moving vehicle. There is a second circular imprint, identical in size, slightly above and closer to the centre.

The seat leather was grazed presumably when the pole was being removed.