The Flavian Signature - Outside of Jerusalem - How to build a tower

gilius

Active Member
This is a slight improvement over Joe's original parallel in that we have a very unusual concept added as well as 2 kings! And remember: the towers were part of the wall system!
 

gilius

Active Member
CM#27 "send a delegation" seems to be part of the above parallel, so might need a bit of refinement.
 

gilius

Active Member
Actually, I think the "terms of peace"/"conditions of peace" in CM#27 is just a coincidence. Modern translation is "trying to talk of peace with the men". Discounting that then opens up a few new larger parallels about Simon/John/Sicarii/swine after the description of Jerusalem and it's treasures - to be figured out later.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
CM #26-27 (build a tower, send a delegation) refers to JW 5,6,258-261 by Joe's analysis:

Now, when affairs within the city were in this posture, Titus went round the city on the outside with some chosen horsemen, and looked about for a proper place where he might make an impression upon the walls; 259but as he was in doubt where he could possibly make an attack on any side (for the place was no way accessible where the valleys were, and on the other side the first wall appeared too strong to be shaken by the engines), he thereupon thought it best to make his assault upon the monument of John the high priest; 260for there it was that the first fortification was lower, and the second was not joined to it, the builders neglecting to build the wall strong where the new city was not much inhabited; here also was an easy passage to the third wall, through which he thought to take the upper city, and, through the tower of Antonia, the temple itself. 261But at this time, as he was going round about the city, one of his friends, whose name was Nicanor, was wounded with a dart on his left shoulder, as he approached, together with Josephus, too near the wall, and attempted to discourse to those that were upon the wall, about terms of peace; for he was a person known by them.​
 

gilius

Active Member
Joe was mistaken there because "make an impression upon the walls" is not the same as "build a tower". The correct parallel is regarding the towers being part of the wall system with emphasis more on the foundations (see top).

As for "send a delegation", "terms of peace" occurs directly after the "foundations" bit in the previous parallel of Luke, but in Josephus there is a very large gap between "foundations" and "trying to talk of peace with the men". Discounting this opens up 9 potential parallels to be matched with that large Josephus gap. So having filled so many gaps recently in the Flavian Signature it's becoming evident that "send a delegation" is too basic in the larger scheme of things - nothing more than a coincidence - depending on translation.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Here's Joe's original parallel, color coded. Agreed that verse 5,6,258 seems to refer to the city walls, rather than a tower as such; nevertheless the entire parallel seems about equally as strong as Giles' proposal. No reason they can't both be right.

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. (Luke 14:28-32)
[td]
Now, when affairs within the city were in this posture, Titus went round the city on the outside with some chosen horsemen, and looked about for a proper place where he might make an impression upon the walls; 259but as he was in doubt where he could possibly make an attack on any side (for the place was no way accessible where the valleys were, and on the other side the first wall appeared too strong to be shaken by the engines), he thereupon thought it best to make his assault upon the monument of John the high priest; 260for there it was that the first fortification was lower, and the second was not joined to it, the builders neglecting to build the wall strong where the new city was not much inhabited; here also was an easy passage to the third wall, through which he thought to take the upper city, and, through the tower of Antonia, the temple itself. 261But at this time, as he was going round about the city, one of his friends, whose name was Nicanor, was wounded with a dart on his left shoulder, as he approached, together with Josephus, too near the wall, and attempted to discourse to those that were upon the wall, about terms of peace; for he was a person known by them. JW 5,6,258-261[/td]​
 
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gilius

Active Member
Like the Physician Heal thyself, Joe's proposed match and my proposed correction all occur within the same section of Josephus (just a few paragraphs apart from each other). The above is even the same topic/location.

Nevertheless, it's my opinion that Joe's match is definitely weaker here:
While this was going on inside the city, Titus went around on the outside with some elite cavalry, looking for a suitable place to make an assault on the walls. 259 He was at a loss, since it was unapproachable along the valleys and on the other side the first wall seemed too strong to be shaken by the machines, but thought it best to make the assault near the tomb of the high priest, John. 260 There the first part of the wall was lower and the second was not joined to it, as the builders neglecting to build it strong as there were not many living in the new city. Here too, there was easy access to the third wall, through which he planned to take the upper city, and, through the Antonia tower, the temple itself. 261 About then, as he was going around, Nicanor, one of his friends, got an arrow in his left shoulder, while approaching too near the wall along with Josephus, trying to talk of peace with the men on the wall to whom he was known.

The alternative is far more explicit with regards to "foundations" and "building towers", but building towers doesn't seem to be the main subject here - the cost is for finishing the tower as part of the wall system, including foundations. Joe's match doesn't talk about building a tower at all - Titus is looking around the outside to find the best way to make an "assault over the walls". Whether the assault involves climbing towers, they are implied as already having been built - though the foundations part gets repeated again, albeit more briefly. So it's all quite ambigious. The part that clinches it for me is the explicit mention of foundations not being completed coupled with the "king vs. king" part. That whole section is quite large in Josephus, so there might be more to that parallel still to be matched/understood.
 
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