The Flavian Signature - Galilee - Physician heal thyself!

gilius

Active Member
This I believe is the correct match and replaces Joe's parallel in Caesar's Messiah: "The battle of Nazareth/Japha"; Joe was only 3 paragraphs away from finding it - clearer in this translation:
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
On this one, I'm feeling that you're at least partly right, Gilius; but the parallels that Joe saw in JW 3,7, 291-304 seem about equally solid? Maybe there's no harm to the argument, if the parallel extends over several paragraphs including some repetition.
 

gilius

Active Member
I checked Joe's parallel in a different translation and found the Whiston one to be slightly misleading with "Titus leaping into the city". I think mine would pass the random sampling test in that it has "drove" and "down" with a much more clearer concept of cliff. And I believe Heal thyself is a satire of committing suicide. Anyway, this was the very first parallel in the system - unless you count one about Samaritan women that Joe talked about - so the strength is quite weak.
 

gilius

Active Member
Here you go: "Doctor, kill yourself!"

Elijah and the Widow
8 Then the word of the Lord came to him: 9 “Get up, go to Zarephath that belongs to Sidon and stay there. Look, I have commanded a woman who is a widow to provide for you there.” 10 So Elijah got up and went to Zarephath. When he arrived at the city gate, there was a widow woman gathering wood. Elijah called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup and let me drink.” 11 As she went to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand.”
12 But she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I don’t have anything baked—only a handful of flour in the jar and a bit of oil in the jug. Just now, I am gathering a couple of sticks in order to go prepare it for myself and my son so we can eat it and die.”
 

gilius

Active Member
Wondering what "Nazareth" has to do with Jotapata? "Nazareth" isn't even described as a satellite village as I was once led to believe, but actually a town/city. I'm guessing Jesus' hometown has something to do with Josephus's hometown where he also defected?
 

gilius

Active Member
Not sure what's going on yet, but Josephus seems to be another lampoon of Jesus or vice versa - more support that Nazareth was Jotapata:

Josephus was wounded on the head by a stone and fell down senseless. Hearing in prison that her son was dead, Josephus's mother told her warders that she had known it since Jotapata and that even while he was alive she had not got much joy from him. But in private she lamented to her maids that this was all the good she got for bringing into the world such an extraordinary child, to be unable even to bury the son whom she had expected to bury her. In fact, this rumour did not long give grief to his mother or solace to the brigands, for Josephus quickly recovered from his wound and came and shouted that they would be punished soon for wounding him.

This sounds like Mary whose son was a human Passover lamb and it also sounds like Jesus ben Ananus who got hit by a stone!
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I noticed that 'Shakespeare' was also setting up the Aaron character in Titus Andronicus as a lampoon of Jesus as well as Josephus. In the parallel to the Decius Mundus triad, Aaron is in the role of Decius, the character who pretended to be God but announced on the third day that he was not. And for a moment, Lucius has Aaron hung by a tree alongside his son, making it possible that both he and his son are types for Jesus:

A halter, soldiers! hang him on this tree.
And by his side his fruit of bastardy.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Trying out the color coding in native HTML format here, showing Joe's original version of this parallel. The structure of the parallels at 3,291-304 and 3,323-331 seem very similar. Both involve suicide as a parody of "heal thyself" (or vice versa), and both include the up/down motif. Joe detected that Titus' soldiers were 'passing through' the Jews, as Jesus did. Nothing equivalent in Giles' find, but this seems very weak. I think the repetition of the parallel twice, with similar themes, can only add to the weight of the parallel.

And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way... (Luke 4:23-30)


… and as they fled to their first wall, the Romans followed them so closely, that they fell in together with them; but when the Jews were endeavoring to get again within their second wall, their fellow citizens shut them out, as being afraid that the Romans would force themselves in with them. It was certainly God, therefore, who brought the Romans to punish the Galileans … many were run through by the swords of their own men, and many by their own swords … and when the soldiers brought ladders to be laid against the wall on every side, the Galileans opposed them from above for a while; but soon afterward they left the walls. Then did Titus' men leap into the city.... So when the fighting men were spent the rest of the multitude had their throats cut (by Titus’ soldiers). Wars of the Jews, 3, 7, 291-293, 296,301-302, 304​
 

gilius

Active Member
I see: they are both very similar - and double weighting is good - so I guess it comes down to perrsonal opinion unless the Flavians were trying to reiterate the same thing as you suggest:
brow of the hill/citadel vs. brow of the hill/opposed from above
drove down/drove down vs. drove down/men leap into the city
Physician heal thyself/kill themselves with their own hands vs. Physicial heal thyself/run through by swords of their own men

Note: drove = cast.

So is Nazareth Japha or Jotapata?

I wonder if there's anymore clues to the correct parallels in the modern translations, like mention of God:


Japha
About this time Vespasian sent Trajan, commander of the tenth legion, off with a thousand cavalry and two thousand infantry, against a city called Jaffa, near Jotapata, that was hot for revolt, buoyed up by the unexpectedly long resistance of Jotapata. Reaching the city he found it hard to take, for besides the natural strength of its location, it was surrounded by a double wall, but when he saw the citizens coming out ready for battle, he fought them and pursued them, after they resisted a short while, and as they fled within their first wall, the Romans followed so closely that they got in among them. As they sought to get back behind their second wall, their fellow citizens shut them out, fearing that the enemy would pile in along with them. God must have caused the Romans to punish the Galileans and caused the people of the city to be locked out by their own folk and killed by their bloody enemies. For as they called on the gate-keepers by name, they still had their throats cut in the very midst of their request. The enemy shut the gates of the outer wall and their own citizens shut the gates of the second, so that, caught between two walls, they died in large numbers, many by the swords of their own men and many on their own swords, besides those who were killed by the Romans. They had no heart to defend themselves, for on top of the alarm caused by the enemy, their betrayal by their own friends quite broke their spirits. Finally all twelve thousand of them were killed, cursing not the Romans, but their own people. Trajan figured that the city was empty of fighting men and even if there were still a few of them, they would be too afraid to risk any opposing him, so reserving its capture for the general, he sent messengers to Vespasian, asking him to send his son Titus to complete the victory. Thinking that some efforts would still be required, the latter sent his son with an army of five hundred cavalry and a thousand infantry. He reached the city quickly and got his army into formation and set Trajan on the left wing, while he took the right himself and led them to the siege. As the soldiers brought ladders to set against the wall on every side, the Galileans opposed them from above for a while but soon left the ramparts. Then Titus's men jumped into the city and seized it, but those inside re-grouped and a fierce battle was fought between them. The able-bodied attacked the Romans in the narrow streets and the women threw at them whatever came to hand and the opposition was kept up for six hours; but once the fighting men were finished the rest of the people had their throats cut, some in the open air and some in their own houses, young and old alike. No males survived, except infants, and they were taken into captivity as slaves along with the women. The number of the fallen, both now in the city and at the preceding fighting, was fifteen thousand, and the captives were two thousand one hundred and thirty. This befell the Galileans on the twenty-fifth day of the month Daesius.


Jotapata
They marched silently to the wall, at the aforementioned hour, and it was Titus himself who first got up on it, with one of his tribunes, Domitius Sabinus and a few of the fifteenth legion. They cut the throats of the sentries and entered the city very quietly. After these came Cerealius the tribune and Placidus, leading their men. When the citadel was taken and the enemy were in the very middle of the city at daybreak, the people were still unaware of their city's capture, Many of them were fast asleep and a great fog, which happened to fall over the city, hindered the ones who were awake from seeing their predicament clearly. They woke up after the whole army had entered, to find the extent of their disaster, and only as they were being killed did they see that the city had been taken. Recalling all that they had suffered during the siege, the Romans spared nobody and showed no mercy, but drove the people down the precipice from the citadel, killing them as they went. The difficulties of the place hindered those who were still able to fight from defending themselves, for they were blocked in the narrow streets and could not keep their footing along the precipice, and were crushed by the warring crowds streaming down from the citadel. This drove many, even of the elite men around Josephus, to kill themselves with their own hands, for when they saw themselves unable to kill any of the Romans, and determined not to let themselves be killed by Roman hands, they gathered in the outskirts of the city and committed suicide.

Those of the sentries who first saw that capture was imminent fled as fast as they could, and going up into one of the towers on the northern side of the city defended themselves there for a while. Surrounded by a throng of enemies, they tried to use their weapons when it was too late and in the end willingly offered their necks to the blades of those who stood over them. The Romans might even been able to boast that this siege ended without any bloodshed on their side, except for a centurion named Antonius who was killed by treachery. For one of the many who fled to the caves asked Antonius to reach him his hand as a guarantee to spare him and help him to come out. When, incautiously, he reached him his hand, the other quickly stabbed him with a spear in the groin, killing him instantly.

That day the Romans killed all the people they found, and on the following days they searched the hiding-places and attacked the people who were under ground and in the caves and treated people of all ages the same, except the infants and the women, of whom twelve hundred were taken captive, while forty thousand were killed at the taking of the city and in the fighting leading up to it. Vespasian ordered the city to be entirely demolished and all the fortifications burned down. That is how Jotapata was taken, in the thirteenth year of the reign of Nero, on the first day of the month Panemus.
 
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gilius

Active Member
The above doesn't really help a great deal - but I think Jotapata wins the championship by a small margin with "treated people of all ages". :confused:
 

gilius

Active Member
*In Joe's match the Romans leaps from the wall into the City
*In the Jotapata match, the Romans drive the people out of the city over the cliff/precipice

So again, if they aren't reiterating the same thing, I would say Jotapata is the current champion for Nazareth.
 

gilius

Active Member
The New Flavian Signature in the context of events in the Jewish War

Are the gospels simply a vanity piece of unified typological literature containing Roman propaganda that promotes the Flavian’s victory against the Jews during the First Jewish-Roman War?

Josephus’ Jewish War was published c. 80 AD following Titus Flavius becoming Roman emperor, describing his Judean campaigns that crushed the Jewish uprising and destroyed their city, Jerusalem, together with its holy temple. This is known as the First Jewish Revolt (66-73 AD). The religious works of the canonical Gospels were written about the same time as Josephus’ Jewish War, but describe a prophet named Jesus and events that supposedly took place 40 years earlier (ending in 33 AD). Josephus went on to write more official Roman history books under Titus’ brother Domitian (reigned 81-96 AD), including Antiquities of the Jews and Life of Flavius Josephus.

Josephus’ Jewish War and the Gospels are so interwoven that the Flavian court historians must have authored both sets of literature? Therefore, Christianity was invented c.80 AD with the publication of Wars of the Jews (and the Gospels) - Jesus Christ representing an archetype role for prefiguring Titus and prophesying events fulfilled in his campaigns, so is merely a fictional character with stolen characteristics and attributes from past deities and prophets. This system is known as Typology, and here reveals the purpose and meaning behind the parallel system employed by its designers - linking both books - through a subtext, puzzle conundrums and interpretable satire among other symbolism and textual devices invisible from the surface narration. Analysis begins with 50 parallels occurring between Josephus and the Gospels – in sequence – containing patterns and matching elements that share some unique: verbatim/near-verbatim, concept, names, and/or location.

The gospels map to Josephus’ Jewish War when Jesus first begins his ministry and when Titus has his first major battle against the Jews at Jotapata; below is the chronology that leads up to this event followed by the first of many parallels I hope to cover in detail here – and in chronological order – as the discussion progresses.


 
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gilius

Active Member
Chronology
66 AD: Under emperor Nero and a series of Roman procurators – Felix, Festus, Albinus, and Florus - the Jews, in the eastern province of Judea, revolted against Roman domination by ravaging the country, setting villages on fire, killing Jonathan the high priest, and rioting at Caesarea over whether Jerusalem belonged to the Jews or Greco-Romans (JW 2.247-283). Under Florus, the Jews were suffering tyranny, and no fewer than 3 million denounced him as the bane of the country (JW 2.280). About 3,600 Jews were killed by Florus in a single day (JW 2.293-308). In Jerusalem more deaths were to follow when Florus attempted to access the temple and Antonia tower, but failed (JW 2.315-332).

May/June: Official beginning of the rebellion and war between the Jews and Romans (JW 2.284) “Some of the main promoters of the war attacked a fortress called Masada and took it by stealth, killing the Romans who were there. Eleazar, son of Ananias the high priest, persuaded those who officiated in the divine service to accept no gift or sacrifice from any foreigner. This was the true beginning of our war with the Romans, for they put an end to the sacrifice for them and for Caesar. It was then discussed by the high priests, leading Pharisees and other influential people about the repercussions for only allowing Jews alone to sacrifice or to worship in the temple - contrary to their ancestors' policy. However, the innovators of war would not heed this advice, so the influential tried to save themselves by sending envoys to Florus, king Agrippa and others. Agrippa grieved and sent 3,000 cavalry to the help of the citizens. Encouraged by this, the influential people, including the high priests seized the upper city, for the rebel party held the lower city and temple. For 7 days there was slaughter on both sides, but neither side would yield up the areas they had seized.” (JW 2.408-424)

During the Festival of Wood-carrying, the king’s men were forced from the upper city. The others then set fire to the houses, palaces and the records archive. The influential people and high priests escaped, some hiding in underground vaults. Others fled with the king's troops to the upper palace, shutting the gates behind them (JW 2.425-429). Antonia was attacked and set on fire (03-Sep) then they marched on the palace, where the king’s men had fled and divided into four groups to attack its walls (JW 2.430). Meanwhile a certain Manahem, son of Judas surnamed the Galilean, retreated to Masada with his company. There he gave out arms not only to his own people, but to other bandits. With these as his bodyguard he returned to Jerusalem in royal state to become leader of the revolt, and ordered the siege to continue (JW 2.433-437). Those inside eventually offered to surrender. This was granted only to the king's troops and their fellow nationals, who accordingly left. The Romans who were left retreated to the royal towers. Manahem and his party attacked the palace as the soldiers fled, killing as many as they could catch before they reached the towers, then they plundered what they had left behind and burned their camp (JW 2.437-440). Next day the high priest was caught where he was hiding in an aqueduct, and he and Hezekiah his brother were killed by the brigands. Then the rebels besieged the towers. Eleazar's group attacked Manahem's group, who at first resisted but then fled. Most were hunted and killed, but a few escaped to Masada, including Eleazar, son of Jairus, a relative of Manahem, who later played the tyrant in Masada. Manahem went into hiding, but was taken alive, tortured in public and finally killed, as well as captains under him (JW 2.441-448). The soldiers under the Roman general, Metilius, offered to surrender their weapons to Eleazar just to spare their lives. Three men were sent to give them the guarantee of their pledge, but then treachery ensued and the soldiers were cruelly butchered except for Metillus for he promised to turn Jew and be circumcised. The city was full of sadness and every sensible person in it was troubled. The very same day the people of Caesarea killed the Jews living among them, so that within an hour more than 20,000 Jews were killed, and all of Caesarea was emptied of its Jewish population, and Florus caught any who fled (JW 2.449-457).

The whole province was in turmoil, and full of atrocities. Villages and towns were ravaged as Jews fought non-Jews, with a similar number of deaths on each side (JW 2.458-465). The people of Scythopolis caused the Jews to fight each other (Life 24-27), where 13,000 Jews were killed in that city alone. Nearly every town and city was affected with several thousand deaths, except for Antioch, Sidon, Apamea and Gerasa. In Alexandria (Egypt) 50,000 Jews lay dead in heaps after the area had to be restrained by Tiberius Alexander and 2 Roman legions assisted by Libyan soldiers. Then Alexander ordered the Romans to retreat, but with some difficulty (JW 2.466-498).

In response to the unrest in Judaea, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, assembled the Syrian legion XII Fulminata, reinforced with units of III Gallica, IIII Scythica and VI Ferrata, plus auxiliaries and allies, a total of 30,000 soldiers, in order to restore order in the neighbouring province (Wikipedia; JW 2.499-512). He first dealt with Galilee (JW 2.499-512), and seeing no further signs of revolt (20-28 Sep) ascended on Bethoron – fifty furlongs from Jerusalem. When they saw the war approaching, the Jews abandoned there festival (Feast of Tents) and took to arms. They attacked the Romans with such force that they broke through their ranks, slaughtering through the middle of them. Cestius and his whole army was nearly in danger. Five hundred and fifteen Romans were killed, while the Jews lost only twenty-two (JW 2.513-520). When the front of their army was cut off, the Jews retreated to the city, but as they were ascending up Bethoron Simon, son of Giora, still attacked the Romans from the rear and spread panic in the rearguard of their army and took many of the pack animals. But now Cestius took his whole force and put the Jews to flight and pursued them as far as Jerusalem, arriving there 16-Nov (JW 2.521-532). He attacked the city in vain then gave up and retreated. The brigands noticed his surprising retreat and pursued the rear of his army and killed many of their cavalry and infantry. Cestius stayed all night at the camp of Scopus. He tried to move away farther the next day, but the enemy in pursuit continued harrying and killing his rearguard. The Romans barely made it to their former camp at Gabao with heavy losses and several important leaders killed. Cestius stayed there for two days, was at a loss to know what to do, and on the third day saw still a greater number of the enemy and the whole area full of Jews. To escape faster, he ordered them to jettison anything that could slow the army's march; and then marched as far as Bethoron. Cestius planned how best to escape. He chose four hundred of his bravest soldiers and placed them on the rooftops to make the Jews believe that the entire army was still there, while he took the rest of his forces and marched thirty furlongs in silence (JW 2.533-551). In the morning (25 Nov), when the Jews saw that the camp was empty, they immediately overcame the four hundred who had tricked them and killed them, and went in pursuit of Cestius. However, he had already spent most of the night on the move and marched still quicker during the day. They went on pursuing the Romans as far as Antipatris, and unable to overtake them, turned back and took the machines and despoiled the corpses and gathered up the loot left behind and returned to their capital, running and singing. While they had lost only a few, they had killed five thousand, three hundred infantry and three hundred and eighty cavalry, on the Roman side. (JW 2.552-555)

The Jews appointed their own government and minted their own coins. Josephus was given Galilee and Gamala (JW 2.562-584) and built defences at many settlements. John of Gischala, son of Levi - cunning and devious - gathered a band of 400 and ransacked all of Galilee creating fear of war. Becoming wealthy from thievery and oil export, he tried to get rid of Josephus and ruin his career, spreading rumours, and even attempted to have him assassinated. Four cities rebelled from him immediately, but he recovered them without war. Simon son of Gioras gathered many men in favour of revolt and went on to ravage the territory and showed the beginnings of his tyranny. (JW 2.590-594).
 

gilius

Active Member
67 AD: Vespasian was selected by Nero as the only one capable of dealing with the Jewish revolt. Vespasian sent his son Titus from Achaia, where he had been in Nero's company, to Alexandria, to bring back from there the fifth and tenth legions, while he himself, after crossing the Hellespont, marched overland into Syria, where he gathered the Roman forces (JW 3.1-8; JW 3.64-69). The Jews, after their unexpected victory against the Romans, marched on Ascalon - always hostile to the Jews - as their first assault. The fight went on until the evening, when 10,000 men of the Jews' side lay dead, including 2/3 generals - due mainly to the superior cavalry of the Romans. A few Romans were also wounded in this battle. After resting for too short a while for their wounds to fully heal, they gathered their forces and attacked to Ascalon more furiously and in much greater numbers - into a second destruction - up to 8,000 killed (JW 3.9-28). Vespasian mustered his forces in the capital of Syria, Antioch, in April. Along with king Agrippa, who was waiting for his arrival with all his forces, he marched on to Ptolemais - met by the people of Sepphoris - the only ones in favour of peace who swore allegience to Cestius Gallus - now they also welcomed the general himself. (JW 3.29-63) Vespasian stayed some time in Ptolemais with his son Titus, putting his army in order, while Placidus was hunting through Galilee and killing many whom he caught. He assaulted Jotapata, but the Romans were put to flight, though only seven were killed. Vespasian was impatient to attack Galilee, so he set off from Ptolemais with his army, encamping at the border. Josephus fled to Tiberias then Jotapata. Vespasian reached the city of Gadara and took it at the first assault, as it lacked any significant number of warriors. Vespasian arrived at Jotapata (22-May) after sending Placidus with a thousand to surround the city and prevent Josephus from secretly escaping (JW 3.110-148).

On the first day of battle outside the ramparts 13 Romans had been killed compared to 17 Jews, but with many more wounded. The battle carried on in this fashion for 5 days, the Romans undaunted by the difficulties of taking the city. Vespasian decided to lay siege. Josephus responded by raising the city walls higher each day and fitting them with several towers and strong battlements, baffling the Romans. Vespasian decided to let them starve out - short of water. Josephus consulted with the influential people about a means of escape. His departure would be the city's ruin, since no one would dare oppose the enemy once the man they trusted had left. He decided to stay, gave a speech to his people, before racing to the Roman camp itself and pulling it to pieces. Vespasian saw the Romans troubled by these raids and proceeded to deploy a battering ram. Josephus managed to delay it's effectiveness and burn the Roman's equipment and progress. Several brave individuals went up against the Romans. Vespasian was struck with an arrow in his foot and wounded a little, causing alarm among the Romans. Out of concern for his father Titus came first of all and the others were distressed due to their esteem for their general and the anxiety of his son. But the father soon calmed the son's fear and the army's distress and roused them to fight the Jews more ardently. The majority of those who fought so hard for Jotapata fell with honour, and most of them were wounded, as the wall, after being ceaselessly battered, finally yielded (JW 3.149-269). The Romans ascended the walls (21-Jun), but were thrown down and burnt with hot oil from Josephus' clever invention. Vespasian called off those soldiers who had been badly mauled, of whom not a few had died and even more were wounded, while no more than six of the Jotapatans were killed, but more than three hundred were carried off wounded (JW 3.270-282). Vespasian comforted his army after what happened and he ordered them to raise the ramparts still higher and to build three towers, each fifty feet high, covered on all sides with plates of iron, held firm by their weight and not easy to set on fire. The battle raged on (JW 3.283-288).

25-Jun: Fall of Japha: About this time Vespasian sent Trajan, commander of the tenth legion, off with a thousand cavalry and two thousand infantry, against a city called Jaffa, near Jotapata. 12,000 of them were killed in-between their double walls. Reserving its capture for the general, he sent messengers to Vespasian, asking him to send his son Titus to complete the victory. Trajan and Titus worked jointly to take the city by siege. 15,000 fell with 2,130 captives.
27-Jun: Fall of Gerizim: Vespasian sent Cerealius, commander of the fifth legion, to deal with the Samaritans at the holy mountain of Gerizim. Not persuaded by his pledge, he attacked them and killed all 11,600 of them.
01-Jul: Fall of Jotapata: weakened and with few men left in the city, the Romans marched silently to the wall surrounding Jotapata - the Roman earthworks were now higher - Titus himself was first up on it, with one of his tribunes, Domitius Sabinus and a few of the fifteenth legion. They cut the throats of the sentries and entered the city very quietly. After these came Cerealius the tribune and Placidus, leading their men. The Romans spared nobody and showed no mercy, but drove the people down the precipice from the citadel, killing them as they went. Many elite and lesser men committed suicide in the outskirts of the city. 40,000 Jews were killed - few on the Roman side - and Vespasian ordered the city to be entirely demolished.
 

gilius

Active Member
Physician heal thyself
Location:
“Nazareth” vs. Jotapata. The existence of a town called “Nazareth” was not known in the first century. In the fourth century, Flavius Constantine built a church next to the ancient Judean town of Japha (near Jotapata), at a site proclaimed by his mother Helena as having been shown to her in a vision as being the “Nazareth” described in the Gospels. Note: Jesus also mentions Capernaum, which is coming in the next parallel after this.

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[table][row]And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, [color=red][b][size=18]‘Physician, heal yourself![/size][/b][/color] Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” And He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. “But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. “And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.” And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up [color=orange][b]and[size=18] drove [/size]Him out of the city, and led Him to the [/b][/color][size=18][color=blue][b]brow of the hill[/b][/color][/size][color=orange][b] on which their[/b] [/color][size=18][color=blue][b]city[/b][/color][/size][color=orange][b] had been built, in order to throw Him [/b][size=18][b]down[/b][/size][b] the[/b] [size=18][b]cliff[/b][/size].[/color] But passing through their midst, He went His way. [b](Luke 4:16-30)[/b][col]They marched silently to the wall, at the aforementioned hour, and it was Titus himself who first got up on it, with one of his tribunes, Domitius Sabinus and a few of the fifteenth legion. They cut the throats of the sentries and entered the city very quietly. After these came Cerealius the tribune and Placidus, leading their men. When the citadel was taken and the enemy were in the very middle of the city at daybreak, the people were still unaware of their city's capture, Many of them were fast asleep and a great fog, which happened to fall over the [color=blue][b][size=18]city[/size][/b][/color], hindered the ones who were awake from seeing their predicament clearly. They woke up after the whole army had entered, to find the extent of their disaster, and only as they were being killed did they see that the city had been taken. Recalling all that they had suffered during the siege, the Romans spared nobody and showed no mercy, but [b][color=orange][size=18]drove[/size] the people [size=18]down[/size] the[size=18] precipice [/size]from the [/color][size=18][color=blue]citadel[/color][/size][/b], killing them as they went. The difficulties of the place hindered those who were still able to fight from defending themselves, for they were blocked in the narrow streets and could not keep their footing along the precipice, and were crushed by the warring crowds streaming down from the citadel. This drove many, even of the elite men around Josephus, to [b][color=red][size=18]kill themselves with their own hands[/size][/color][/b], for when they saw themselves unable to kill any of the Romans, and determined not to let themselves be killed by Roman hands, they gathered in the outskirts of the city and committed suicide. [b](Jewish War 3, 7, 323-331)[/b][/table]
And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” And He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. “But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. “And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.” And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. But passing through their midst, He went His way. (Luke 4:16-30)They marched silently to the wall, at the aforementioned hour, and it was Titus himself who first got up on it, with one of his tribunes, Domitius Sabinus and a few of the fifteenth legion. They cut the throats of the sentries and entered the city very quietly. After these came Cerealius the tribune and Placidus, leading their men. When the citadel was taken and the enemy were in the very middle of the city at daybreak, the people were still unaware of their city's capture, Many of them were fast asleep and a great fog, which happened to fall over the city, hindered the ones who were awake from seeing their predicament clearly. They woke up after the whole army had entered, to find the extent of their disaster, and only as they were being killed did they see that the city had been taken. Recalling all that they had suffered during the siege, the Romans spared nobody and showed no mercy, but drove the people down the precipice from the citadel, killing them as they went. The difficulties of the place hindered those who were still able to fight from defending themselves, for they were blocked in the narrow streets and could not keep their footing along the precipice, and were crushed by the warring crowds streaming down from the citadel. This drove many, even of the elite men around Josephus, to kill themselves with their own hands, for when they saw themselves unable to kill any of the Romans, and determined not to let themselves be killed by Roman hands, they gathered in the outskirts of the city and committed suicide. (Jewish War 3, 7, 323-331)

Verbatim: both refer to “driving” people “down” a “cliff” or “precipice” as a possible connection between the 2 stories.
Concept: Once the verbatim link is considered, which forms a concept in itself (driving people down a cliff), “Physician, heal yourself” then begins to stand out as some kind of slogan for “kill themselves with their own hands” – but this is far from clear at first glance. To confirm the concept - and indeed the parallel - we need to look up the verse that Jesus is referring to about “Elijah and the widow”:

“Then the word of the Lord came to him: “Get up, go to Zarephath that belongs to Sidon and stay there. Look, I have commanded a woman who is a widow to provide for you there.” So Elijah got up and went to Zarephath. When he arrived at the city gate, there was a widow woman gathering wood. Elijah called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup and let me drink.” As she went to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand.” But she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I don’t have anything baked—only a handful of flour in the jar and a bit of oil in the jug. Just now, I am gathering a couple of sticks in order to go prepare it for myself and my son so we can eat it and die.” (1 Kings 17:8-12)

Typology: so what have we learnt from this first example? In the gospels Jesus was about to be driven over the edge of the citadel, but in the historical narrative of Josephus it’s the Romans who are driving the Jewish people out of their own city!
Satire: Jesus is teaching his disciples about a widow who killed herself and her son as a dark anti-Semitic reminder of the Roman victory at Japha and Jotapata, where the Jews committed suicide after many were driven over a cliff by the Romans.
Information: The authors require us to sometimes look up verses in other books of the bible in order to understand the joke. Jesus’ words make more sense when harmonized with Josephus in this, the first of many parallels - occurring in sequence - for at least 50 stories in the Gospels and real life events in the Jewish War.

Next parallel: Heaven and Hell
 
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gilius

Active Member
More support for Jotapata:
In Luke, the synagogue are being taught a lesson in a class room - and the "sky was shut up"
In JW we have "Many of them were fast asleep and a great fog, which happened to fall over the city, hindered the ones who were awake from seeing their predicament clearly."
 

gilius

Active Member
It looks like Heaven and Hell is part of this same parallel - more support for Jotapata - since the Heaven and Hell prophecy is fulfilled just after Physician Heal Thyself but the prophecy was introduced just before:


Luke 4:16-30

16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 And all were speaking well of Him, and wondering at the gracious words which were falling from His lips; and they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” 23 And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” 24 And He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. 25 “But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; 26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 “And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.” 28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way.
 

gilius

Active Member
A slightly better write-up I did:

Jesus was in a synagogue lecturing some Jews. In the gospels story he was about to be driven over the edge of their city upon a cliff, but in contrast, in the historical narrative of Josephus, it’s the Romans who are driving the Jewish people out of their own citadel! Once the verbatim link is considered, which forms a concept in itself ("driving" Jews "down" a cliff/precipice from their "city"), “Physician, heal yourself” then begins to stand out as some kind of slogan for “kill themselves with their own hands” – but this is far from clear at first glance. To confirm the concept - and indeed the parallel - we need to look up the story that Jesus is referring to about “Elijah and the widow” - who killed herself and her son - as a dark anti-Semitic reminder of the Roman victory at Japha and Jotapata, where the Jews committed suicide after many were driven over a cliff by the Romans. The authors require us to sometimes look up verses in other books of the bible in order to understand the joke. Jesus’ words make more sense when harmonized with Josephus in this, the first of many parallels - occurring in sequence - for at least 50 stories in the Gospels and real life events in the Jewish War.



 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Giles, nice to see you.

I'm not sure if this matters to the overall argument, because it's true that 1 Kings 17 does include that dark hint of suicide as you say. But, what happens next is that Elijah tells the widow that she and her son aren't going to die; and then God provides plenty of food, and Elijah miraculously saves the widow's son when he gets sick.
 
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