The Case of the Fresh Fillet and Crispy Sprats

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Just some errant thoughts about the "Big Fish"-

(1) the fish was a run-away - Josephus was a "run-away", he had rebelled against Rome in the First Jewish War, and he later ran away from his fellow Jews by surrendering to Vespasian, instead of committing suicide, as he had told his men that he would do.

(2) that had long feasted in Caesar's fishponds; - Josephus had lived off the bounty of the Flavians for about 20 years, at the time of this council meeting of Emperor Domitian.

(3) escaped from thence, - Josephus had escaped from being a prisoner/slave of Rome, by prophesying that Vespasian was the future ruler of the world. The fish himself wanted to be caught- Josephus himself had wanted to be "caught" by Vespasian, into the "net" of his entourage, by this foretelling of the glorious future in store for him.

(4) he must needs be restored to his former master - did Domitian think that Josephus was getting "too big for his britches", with his propaganda work for Rome, and needed a dressing down by the Emperor, to put him back into his place?

(5) This monster the master of the boat and line designs for the High Pontiff - As the master of the boat (structure) and line (propaganda), Josephus had created a "monster" of a religion, designed for an universal Emperor/High Pontiff/Pope, of what was to become the future Roman Catholic Church.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Later, under Nero, he was executed. During their marriage, Poppaea gave birth to his son, a younger Rufrius Crispinus, who, after her death, would be drowned by Nero while out on a FISHING TRIP."
Classicist Barry Baldwin's paper on "Juvenal's Crispinus": http://casa-kvsa.org.za/legacy/1979/AC22-01-Baldwin.pdf

What I am getting from this article is that Crispinus was one of the "Twelve Apostles" of Pontifex Maximus Domitian.
and Crispinus, reeking at early dawn with odours enough to out-scent two funerals
Since the father and son named Crispinus perished under Nero, it would appear that Juvenal is taking "literary license", by conflating Crispinus with Crispus, and also doing the same with the fish stories in this satire. He also "conflates" Domitian by sarcastically describing him as a "bald-headed Nero".
Perhaps Juvenal is indicating knowledge of the technique of chronological displacement as most of the Roman Provenance theories suggest for the gospels?

The Crispinus being referred to is obviously the son, and he has been fished out of the water, now reeking with odours. Yet, even the younger, as Seeker noticed, died well before Domitian became Emperor and Pontifex Maximus. Nero killed the father and son, the odours of two funerals. And so is this Juvenal's cryptic way of telling us that the metaphorical big fish was brought before Nero instead?

There are differing accounts of how Poppaea died via Nero's hands, or that she may have died from natural causes. Nero paid her great honors afterwards. For this and other reasons it is suspected that Nero may be the victim of some black propaganda. He has some interesting relations with the Jews, as did Poppaea, contrasting her relationships with Josephus with Florus for instance.

We already suspect Josephus of being a double agent in regards to his role with the war, and perhaps Florus role was to agitate the populace, like Federal troops being sent to Portland?

(BTW: Deci-Mus --- Maxi-Mus, the Top Mouse?)
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Deci-Mus --- Maxi-Mus, the Top Mouse?
As Charles N. Pope has removed some of the information from his "Domain of Man" site, this is only from memory, but I believe that he had an esoteric take on the Decius Mundus/Paulina/Saturninus "triangle". Decius Mundus represented Paul (whom Ellis equates as Josephus), taking Christianity (the bride of Christ, who becomes "Paulina"), away from Jesus (Saturninus, because Jesus is traditionally born around the feast of Saturnalia/Christmas). Clever, eh?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Clever, eh?
Clever indeed! But since Pope took this off his site, one has to wonder whether perhaps Pope read Atwill's version and decided he liked it better. Since we're dealing in literary allusions and typography, there's no reason why both interpretations can't be simultaneously true.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Since we're dealing in literary allusions and typography, there's no reason why both interpretations can't be simultaneously true.
Exactly, which is why I thought that Pope's interpretation would be entirely appropriate for Postflavian consideration. Personally, I do regret that he took so much off of his site, with apparently no explanation, at least none that I have been able to find so far (perhaps the old discussions on file were taking up too much of his website space?). Before I joined this group, I had even contacted him, but he has also removed his contact address now.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Have you checked to see if archive.org saved a copy of the site in its heyday? Maybe we should spider it and keep our own copy too.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Have you checked to see if archive.org saved a copy of the site in its heyday? Maybe we should spider it and keep our own copy too.
Jerry, you are the man! I Thank You, if indeed I am the only one interested in him. https://web.archive.org/web/20190524194838/http://www.domainofman.com/ I could never get his Search Engine to work for me, but somewhere in there on his site, again from my memory, don't quote me on this, but years ago, I do believe he corresponded with Joseph Atwill at one time.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Well, sorry for the delay, and you will probably be disappointed. This happens sometimes in life. I was was certain that I would come up with some exciting revelation about some twin crispy saints, but instead all I came up with is these two that allegedly made their way (from where?) to Soissons France. Saints of shoemakers and such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crispin_and_Crispinian

However, they did make their way into Shakespeare's Henry V, as well as being honored from England to the Philippines. So, if there is any connection to the Crispinus father and son of the Big Fish story it seems the narrative has been obscured, as is most everything else about these two saints.

The following is J. Rendell Harris' comments from The Cult of the Heavenly Twins pg. 73:

767
768

Hmmm, Crispin and Crispinian brought Christianity to Soissons? Was this Crispinus father and/or son part of the 'Chrestian' big fish project?

Harris elsewhere mentions a Saint Agricola in France. I believe Vespasian and his brother served under the Agricola in Britain.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
In searching for Adiabene (east of the Euphrates or east of the Tigris?) I happened across a translator's note to Antiquities, Chapter XX:

(17) This duration of the reign of Claudius agrees with Dio, as Dr. Hudson here remarks; as he also remarks that Nero's name, which was at first L. Domitius Aenobarbus, after Claudius had adopted him was Nero Claudius Caesar Drusus Germanicus. This Soleus as [own Life, sect. 11, as also] by Dio Cassius andTaeims, as Dr. Hudson informs us.

In looking at the beginning of Suetonius account of Nero we find:

Two branches of the Domitian family distinguished themselves -- the Calvini and the Ahenobarbi. The Ahenobarbis were named after their founder, Lucius Domitius; the tradition being that once, on his return to Rome from the country, he met a pair of twins looking more like gods than men [who announce that the battle of Lake Regillus had been won -rs]. In proof of their divinity the twins stroked him on both sides of his chin and thereby turned his beard from black to the colour of bronze -- a physical peculiarity which became dominant among his descendants. ...

Well now, Juvenal, just which Domitian is which? Does this put fishmonger cum Praetorian capo, ol' Crispinus, back in play with the Big Fish Story? Makes one wonder how emperor Domitian was given this name as well.

Note we also have invoked here divine twins, presumably riding horses to announce the news of the battle. And that we have some reason provided that people might wonder about the subsequent Ahenobarbi having bronze hair. Sounds like mommy may have been conducting some hanky-panky, but in any case, this is a story almost like how Moses comes out of the tabernacle with a different 'countenance', lighter skin than those Canaanite 'Hebrews'.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Makes one wonder how emperor Domitian was given this name as well.
Officially, he was apparently named for his mother, Flavia Domitilla Major, as his sister was named Domitilla the Younger, after her, also. Secretly, according to the Charles N. Pope "Domain of Man" site, Domitian and Nero would have been second cousins, in the elite family ruling the world behind the scenes, as great-grandchildren of Julius Caesar (yes, just like "Jesus"), who became the hidden (like the Wizard of Oz) Great King of the World, after his "assassination". Remember the prophecy that only a "King" could conquer Parthia (where Caesar had intended to go), that was "truth in plain sight", applying to Caesar, who actually did go East after he "left" Rome, just as he had said that he would.
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
these two that allegedly made their way (from where?) to Soissons France. Saints of shoemakers and such.
The Wikipedia article states that they were fleeing persecution from Rome.
Hmmm, Crispin and Crispinian brought Christianity to Soissons? Was this Crispinus father and/or son part of the 'Chrestian' big fish project?
I see another possible connection between these pairs, again according to that Wikipedia article. Crispin and Crispinian were thrown into the river with millstones around their necks (Incidentally, Jesus had a saying about that penalty, concerning those that offended "these little ones"), thus becoming "food for the fish", and father Crispinus was originally a hawker of fish, with the execution of his son Crispinus by Nero on a fishing trip.
I believe Vespasian and his brother served under the Agricola in Britain.
They actually served under Aulus Plautius (who became the first Roman Governor of Britain), as Gnaeus Julius Agricola was only 3 years old in the year that Britain was invaded. However, Agricola later supported Vespasian during the Year of the Four Emperors, was given a military command in Britain when Vespasian became Emperor, and, after being made patrician in Rome and appointed Governor of Gallia Aquitania, ultimately was appointed Governor of Britannia by him. He was recalled from Britain by Vespasian's jealous son, Domitian, and rumors circulated that Domitian later poisoned him (Agricola's father had been executed by Emperor Caligula).
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Harris elsewhere mentions a Saint Agricola in France.
If Harris means the 7th century Saint Agricola, Bishop of Avignon (in the province of Gallia Narbonensis, where Gnaeus Julius Agricola had his family estates, being born at Forum Julii, founded by Julius Caesar, and now known as Frejus), then his father was Saint Magnus of Avignon, a Gallo-Roman Senator, Governor of Avignon, and the preceding Bishop there. Saint Magnus is the patron saint of fish dealers and fishmongers!
 
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Domitian's Big Fish is awaiting a "Promethean" destiny eh?

In Greek mythology, Dolos or Dolus (Ancient Greek: Δόλος "Deception") is the spirit of trickery and guile. He is also a master at cunning deception, craftiness, and treachery. He was the son of Gaia (Earth) and Aether (Hyginus, Fabulae Theogony 3)[1] or Erebus and Nyx (Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3.17).[2]
Dolos is an apprentice of the Titan Prometheus and a companion of the Pseudologi (Lies). His female counterpart is Apate, who is the goddess of fraud and deception. His Roman equivalent is Mendacius. There are even some stories of Dolos tricking gods into lies.

Potters and the Big Fish?

From the same link:

Aesop, Fables:[6]

Prometheus, that potter who gave shape to our new generation, decided one day to sculpt the form of Veritas (Truth) [Aletheia], using all his skill so that she would be able to regulate people's behaviour. As he was working, an unexpected summons from mighty Jupiter [Zeus] called him away. Prometheus left cunning Dolus (Trickery) in charge of his workshop, Dolus had recently become one of the god's apprentices. Fired by ambition, Dolus (Trickery) used the time at his disposal to fashion with his sly fingers a figure of the same size and appearance as Veritas (Truth) [Aletheia] with identical features. When he had almost completed the piece, which was truly remarkable, he ran out of clay to use for her feet. The master returned, so Dolus (Trickery) quickly sat down in his seat, quaking with fear. Prometheus was amazed at the similarity of the two statues and wanted it to seem as if all the credit were due to his own skill. Therefore, he put both statues in the kiln and when they had been thoroughly baked, he infused them both with life: sacred Veritas (Truth) walked with measured steps, while her unfinished twin stood stuck in her tracks. That forgery, that product of subterfuge, thus acquired the name of Mendacium [Pseudologos, Falsehood], and I readily agree with people who say that she has no feet: every once in a while something that is false can start off successfully, but with time Veritas (Truth) is sure to prevail. [N.B. This Greek fable is preserved in a Roman compilation so the names have been translated into Latin. Dolos, however, remains Dolus in Latin.]
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
Prometheus, that potter who gave shape to our new generation, decided one day to sculpt the form of Veritas (Truth)
If that big Promethean fish, that required potters, indeed personified Josephus/Arrius Calpurnius Piso, both Charles N. Pope and Roman Piso have him as the ancestor of members of the Nerva-Antonine dynasty (Pope even has him as Emperor Nerva). "Prometheus" thus "gave shape to" a "new generation" of Roman Emperors, after Domitian was assassinated by some of his "potters" (henchmen associated with Josephus/Arrius Calpurnius Piso). "The form" (name) of some of these succeeding Emperors was "Verus", supposed to be ancient cousins of the de Veres, who used the motto "Vero Nihil Verius" (Nothing Truer than Truth).
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Yes, and now we must ponder if the Bible and Christianity are of the Logos .. or the Pseudologos.

And with discovering the symbiotic wasp and fig relationship (in regards to Jesus getting mad at the barren fig tree) we now have another Flavian signature.

Yesterday was a good day.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Yes, and now we must ponder if the Bible and Christianity are of the Logos .. or the Pseudologos.
Perhaps the "Pisologos"?

And with discovering the symbiotic wasp and fig relationship (in regards to Jesus getting mad at the barren fig tree) we now have another Flavian signature.
Indeed, it looks as though the Vespasian wasp stung and paralyzed the cicada, often confused with the locust (the royal family of Izates).

Yesterday was a good day.
Roman Emperor Trajan, of that Nerva-Antonine dynasty that succeeded the murdered Flavian Emperor Domitian (who had apparently suppressed the Josephus/Piso family), officially passed away on August 8, 117. "Sic transit gloria mundi"!

773
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Thanks to Charles Pope (Jesus Among the Julio-Claudians) and Seeker, we have a reference to King Seleucus VII Philometor, who bears the derogatory moniker for a fish handler. So, with this we might surmise that Rufrius Crispinus' reputation as having risen to the command of the Praetorian Guard from being an Egyptian 'fish merchant' might be similar in nature. In the Roman societal system he most certainly was of higher social standing to begin with.

But we must also ask whether this fish reference is also to the new mystery cult. Is S7P a type of Saul, sent by 'conservative' members of the royal 'mafia' to kill members of the new cult? But, instead, Berenice IV, or sister Cleo VII(?) takes him down.

King of Syria
The last members of the once mighty Seleucid dynasty are shadowy figures; local dynasts with complicated family ties whose identities are hard to ascertain: many of them also bore the same names. Seleucus was unknown until recently. From coins issued by him and his mother, Ptolemaic princess Cleopatra Selene, it is presumed that he was her son by king Antiochus X Eusebes, and a brother of later king Antiochus XIII Asiaticus. He appears to have "reigned" during the occupation of Syria by Armenian king Tigranes (83-69 BC). In reality, only a few cities were loyal to the Seleucids during this period.
Some time after Tigranes had conquered Syria (83 BC), his mother travelled to Rome to have her sons recognized as kings of Egypt, but to no avail. They were there between at least between 75 BC and 73 BC; recognized as "Kings of Syria", and "maintained a royal state".[1]
Co-regent of Egypt
The young boy-king is probably the same Seleucus who later went to marry a Ptolemaic princess called Berenice IV on an unknown date (a sister of the famous Cleopatra VII of Egypt) to become co-regent of Egypt.[2] but allegedly was murdered by the discontented bride for his lack of manners. He bore the derogatory name Kybiosaktes, the term for the foul-smelling work of cutting tuna fish.

Note that Cleo Selene travels to Rome to have her sons recognized, and we are seeing the typical marriages between dynasties. Such is the basis of Pope's thesis that the Roman 'royalty' is much tighter linked to the Greeks, the Egyptians, and ... the 'Jewish' Hasmoneans. By their very genes. They use multiple disguising names as they move around, thus sometimes appearing to be "shadowy figures".
 
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