Sept. 8: Craig Rice, Anatoly Fomenko, Flat Earth. Sophistry!

[Jerry Russell]

(New!) Podcast at this link:

Craig Rice; Anatoly Fomenko; Flat Earth. Sophistry! Fri. Sept. 8

Most of our long-term podcast listeners (and I know there are at least two or three of you out there) know that Joe has also been doing a series of podcasts with Jan Irvin. Those podcasts came to an end at Unspun #65.

After simmering for awhile, the disagreement between Jan vs. Joe came to a head this weekend, in a thread at Jan's Facebook page. Jan makes the following accusations against Joe, and also against us here at Postflaviana:

(1) Jan believes that Anatoly Fomenko's chronology is correct, and that this disproves the thesis of Caesar's Messiah. (The headline of the Facebook thread is "What if... Judaism came from Christianity, rather than the other way around?")

(2) Joe's grandmother was the well-known novelist Craig Rice. One of Rice's three husbands was Lawrence Lipton, a Jewish beat poet. Jan believes that Joe should have revealed this while they were discussing beat poets.

(3) Renate Hecht joined the thread with her testimony to the effect that Joe was not a founder of Ferguson Tool / ASNA, that he can't play chess, and furthermore that he broke down her door, stole her furniture, and terrorized her 11-year-old child.

(4) Giles Gaffney is affiliated with Joe, which makes him also a shill in Jan's opinion. Giles advocates for Flat Earth, which Jan takes as further evidence that Giles is a spook. Giles Gaffney writes about Flat Earth here at Postflaviana, which has led Jan to believe that we here also endorse Flat Earth.

(5) For some reason, Jan thinks we're Zionists.

Our answers:

(1) Fomenko has been discussed in this thread,

http://postflaviana.org/community/i...it-hole-anyone-else-wanna-take-the-trip.1542/

(2) Re Joe's grandmother, Craig Rice: Joe has often made arguments that so-and-so is a Crypto-Jew and/or a lifetime actor, based on similar evidence. But just as often, I've tried to point out that such genetic relationships are circumstantial evidence at best.

(3) Joe has provided me with the following statement about Renate Hecht, and given me permission to post here. Quote:

I have a vivid memory of my lawsuit with Ms. Hecht, though it was resolved over thirty years ago. My memory of the events at issue is somewhat different than Ms. Hecht’s however. In fact, Ms. Hecht's recent public statement concerning me is essentially the same pack of lies she presented during the lawsuit. In the trial, the judge ruled that she was a complete liar and awarded her nothing. A sore loser, she is now presenting her lies again simply to slander my reputation.

Renate Hecht was judged by a court of law to be neither a starter, an owner, a founder nor a financier of either of Ferguson Tool or ASNA. Thus, this is not a case of ‘he said, she said’. This is a seven-year legal case in which ‘she said’ and then judge decreed her a liar based upon the evidence.

I was a co-founder of Ferguson Tool Company and ASNA. No one who understands this term would contest this claim because when I took over as President I faced the following conditions; on the Ferguson Tool side there was a product but no revenue because our tiny start up list of customers had all been maliciously named by Ms. Hecht as co-defendants in her frivolous lawsuit and this, of course, shut down their rent of our product. On the ASNA front, the product was not even in development. Not one single line of the code that would become the product had been written. Renate’s claim that David left her “just before” the System 34 product was saleable is a lie. The product was not commercially viable for nearly two years. There were no employees, cash in the bank or place of business and all that we ‘owned’ when I became part of the founding group was Ms. Hecht’s lawsuit.

Thus, neither company had been in any way “founded” before I became part of the group that worked without salaries for nearly two years to bring a business into existence. There are only three people who can claim to have been the founders of what became an internationally successful software company – Anne Ferguson (perhaps the most tireless, competent person it has ever been my privilege to work with) David and myself. As co-founders we absorbed all of the ‘business risk’. If our products failed, or Ms. Hecht’s lawsuit succeeded, we would have received nothing for our efforts and I would have lost the money I had loaned to the business to keep it afloat during the foundation era.

Neither of the products sold by Ferguson Tool or ASNA was an operating system as claimed by Ms. Hecht; one was a data management system the other was an emulator. With her attempt at ‘computer speak’ Renate is trying to show she had some understanding of the businesses, but instead only reveals what an obvious liar and fraud she is.

Renate’s claim to have “not known” about my role at ASNA during the lawsuit is also a lie as her attorneys deposed me in her presence during the suit. In the deposition I, of course, stated what my role was in the Company being sued.

During discovery it was shown that Renate’s claim to have “financed” both companies was another lie. She could not produce a single piece of evidence showing she had invested a penny into either company. Bear in mind that she was represented by some of the most powerful attorneys in Los Angeles and the suit went on for seven years, so if there were one iota of evidence she had even partially financed either company it would have been brought to light and the judge would have awarded her something. The fact that she received neither a single share of stock nor single dollar of compensation shows that the judge recognized she was a complete liar and had not contributed anything – money or labor - to either company.

Neither of the incorporation documents of Ferguson Tool and ASNA listed her an owner. Therefore, Renate lied and claimed that she had a “secret document” which, she kept under the bed that we took from her house. She claimed that the “secret document” was an agreement with David, which gave her ownership in the companies and then claimed that we stole it when we took the bed.

Like the nonexistent records showing her financial investment into the company there were, amazingly, no other copies of the “secret document” in existence. The judge didn’t buy this lie either because you can only claim the dog ate the homework once.

Her claim that we ‘broke into’ her house is another lie. David had a key as he had been living there until a few weeks before we removed his furniture. Renate had said nothing to David about not being allowed to enter the residence. As Renate and David had broken up, he simply wanted his furniture. We entered using the key and took nothing but the furniture that David owned long before he met Renate. The child was not even in the house. Nothing was damaged.

Renate tried to get the police involved but they reviewed the matter and would not even file it as a case since the house had not been broken into and David was able to prove he had prior ownership of all the furniture. We were not “severely sanctioned” by anyone. This is a lie. Because a lawsuit had been filed, the judge ruled that everything needed to stay where it was the day the suit began and await legal resolution. We complied and returned the furniture.

I was able to code in Assembler – trained mainly by David though I did not write either product. One product, Elimin8, was written before David met Renate, the other Acceler8 was written entirely after he left her.

I have achieved in sanctioned chess tournaments and documented games the title of Expert from the USCF and Master from ICC. I have over 100 victories in blitz chess with internationally titled masters. David and I often played and studied chess together, though never with Renate as she did not have the skill to play with rank beginners let alone masters. Claiming that she played with David and me is a lie.

After what I recall was his third stroke David was basically brain dead. After the stroke his mind was so vacant that we had to take away his cigarettes because he couldn’t feel them burning into his flesh. Thus, Renate’s claim that he ‘died lonely’ is a lie.

Before the stroke he lived in a retirement home five houses down from mine. I saw him almost every day. He was the closest friend I ever had in my life. After his mind left him we sent him to spend the final days with his daughter in Oregon as – if memory serves - we thought she would welcome some financial compensation for doing so. I doubt Renate saw him once in his final fifteen years. This is not hard to understand, as David hated her. He constantly told me that he saw Renate as the most pathological liar he ever met in his life.

I am certain if he was alive he would say the same thing today.
​

(4) Giles Gaffney is, I believe, a good-hearted individual who is seriously mistaken about the shape of the earth. Apparently he doesn't hold me in the same esteem. Bygones.

(5) We (Rick, Joe and I) all agree that the project of establishing a Jewish religious state in Palestine is a sadly misguided, racist effort. It's an attempt to right past wrongs on the back of the Palestinians, and it's resulted in the creation of an apartheid situation. The Zionist project is one of the main factors that's driving our planet to nuclear destruction. I feel we've made this abundantly clear.

On the other hand, I also don't believe that rank-and-file Jews are primarily responsible for Zionism. It's basically an elite secret society project, and Christian Zionists are also implicated.

Jan thinks that quantum physics is a Zionist plot. Postflavians endorse certain aspects of quantum mechanics. I also think honey is sweet, but that doesn't make me King Samson.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Simply based upon your characterizations of Irvin's positions, it is clearly apparent that he doesn't (want to?) understand our positions (which are somewhat different with Joe's). It is likely that I have spent even less time understanding Jan's (ironically(?) pronounced Yah n) positions than he has mine, nevertheless, in quick order I have triviated the basis of his claims of a prior Christianity to Judaism, .... and that, under my definition of Zionism, that he is clearly a (red-headed) Zionist agent, like Donald J. Trump, but the only significant question then appears as to whether or not Jan is a witting one or an unwitting one.

Not even 15 minutes into the following video (see at bottom) Mr Irvin's guest, Gene Odening, discusses the long pre-existing trinity parallels between Indian religious aspects and what we know today as normative Christianity. Personally I have no qualms with this specific assertion, but under any chronology, Christianity, as we know it today at least, ubiquitously refers to Judaic antecedents. I have frequently discussed the esoteric Platonic underpinnings of Christianity, of which Plato stated that one could not understand Platonism without understanding Pythagoras. In the video, Mr. Odening discusses the Classical Greek, Pythagorean intellectual roots extending 'physically' clear back to Indian, later retraced by Alexander the Great. I have also pondered whether or not Christianity was a veiled restatement of such as caste system of Buddhism, in this case a hereditary one with the equivalent of elite Brahmins at the top.

The discussion logically proceeds onto the importance of LAND (and its ownership), as a central determinant of whether a society is civilized or not. This is no doubt a key basis for Race Nationalists and White Supremacists to be attracted to what I understand is Jan's gentil Globalist zeitgeist, cleverly masked (just like Donald Yah n Trump does) as Nationalist Populism. Adolf Hitler and his elite sponsors, played the same anti-intellectualist [sic] deception on the national socialists of the NSDAP, the socialist workers' party where he shifted focus to serving the elite industrialists upon taking control of the party. Hitler's claimed motivation was in garnering more land for the downtrodden German people, leibensraum. They were downtrodden because, via the staged outcome of WWI, this is how the elites orchestrated their short range drama, a one stepping stone, within their long range globalist plan.

In this global LAND / real estate acquisition business (where Trump is an exemplar - Templar), there is a very interesting commonality in this central theme, between the Judaic Zionism and that of which is represented by such as the Hellenizing Alexander the Great. BTW, according to (who? Obviously not Herodotus), the latter was lauded by the Temple Jews as he passed through Jerusalem on the way to Egypt, where he took on the attributes of a god.

Similarly, the Maccabees were really (not-so-crypto) Hellenists, as also represented by their most famous descendant, Josephus Flavius. If one goes by the lifestyle context of post Flavian Rabbinic Jews, these are certainly more Hellenistic than prior era Temple Jews.

But conveniently, for Jan, we can throw all this out the window now, because he has recently 'discovered' Fomenko's 'black rabbit hole' (did I just coin this, or what?)?

Whatever the case, the bottom line is the acquisition and control of LAND, but by and for whom? Unfortunately, because we now have to disregard everything, because of Fomenko, we can not point out that Classical Greece (including Sparta), Republican and Imperial Rome, the New World, and old and new Israel (at least) were all focused on ownership and control of LAND. The ownership basis stems from military Conquest (deja vu?), at least by the (to be conveniently ignored now) narratives that we have. The ownership is for the gentil elites, to be worked by the slaves and Slavs, and occasionally doled out to loyal freedmen, the very term denotes a former slave status. The aristocratic Romans did not like land reform, hence the killing of the Gracchi brothers, and the death squads of Central and South America (and the CIA).

Ironically, Mr Odening (from Odin perhaps) states that all this Hellenistic Globalizing is a recapitulation and reclaiming of the long distant Atlantis and Lemuria. I have pondered the question myself, but even if true, I do not ascribe to the implied and explicit race superiority taken by what is essentially a sophist bait and switch ploy of the globalists (Hide the Globalist elite), by the use of what I have described as the False Dialectic of Jews versus 'Gentils' (the elites). Also, I would not be the first to ponder if (A)braham is not a cynical inversion of Brahma, similar to the central inversion of the Vedas by the Avestas. Many people suspect the Aryan (Persians) Zoroastrians of playing a key role in the foundation of Judaism. As I have also discussed, the late Nicholas DeVere asserts that his Arya clan were the real players of the Bible lands, and that there are no other Arya, period. This is as bold an Identity Scam as I make with the alleged family of Jacob. Jacob, that guy who stole his red-headed twin brother's birthright.

It has just occurred to me that such otherwise incoherent complaints against '(l)iberals, as Jerry and myself - as we are wittingly or unwittingly characterized, via an expression of an apparent superior 'white' discontent with the expanding of 'Liberal' Gnowledge to the unwashed. Ironically, today's discontented, mostly ill-educated whites, via their mostly liberal public (socialist) high school educations also see themselves as transposed to being worthy freemen today. The Modern liberal world has unwittingly elevated them to the gentility, with little more effort than a Christian claiming Salvation by the mere acceptance of Christ as Savior. See from the Trivium Home page:



Thomas More is not talking about "your people" as in 'the feudal serfs' of England at the time. He was talking about maintaining the liberal education of the gentility, those directly below the titled nobility, and occasionally including intellectually worthy ones from such as the merchant classes.

Regarding Roman times, freemen were 'permitted' to pursue the liberal arts, even some worthy slaves were as well, those prone to eventually becoming loyal 'freedmen'. But, certainly not those collecting olives and grapes from their masters' Land.

Mr. Irvin has also had an interview guest, Scott Onstott, who, in this video, asserts that the Quadrivium was solely reserved for the elites, while the lower, trivial(?) Trivium was the upper bounds for the intermediate servile class (as opposed to the lowest manual laborers).

However, the complaints against us (and others) do appear coherent if the determinant fulcrum is shape-shifted into being from that we have a different notions of such as fair land usage and control (ownership is control), and such as Blood. We do not believe that being herded into Ayn Randian, unregulated chimpig pens owned by the concentrated few is a good solution, except, that is, to the one's advancing this notion, sardonically the not-so-crypto Traditionalst Monarcho-Catholics, that fund such as Mont Pelerin Society.

When such as Fomenko erase all history beyond 1,000 CE, whether it is correct or not, it then becomes very convenient to install other interpretations. In this case, it appears to support more recent assertions of race nationalism. The Book of Revelation asserts that all the nations will conform to one authority. For the evangelical, this is no problem as that authority is God, but for the more critical and cynical, this one authority is yet an Earthly office. This is the Roman (and the Jewish - messiah) model.

One may see the analogous semantical approach with the so-called United States, where the originally sovereign states have been converted into one 'American' national entity, the states becoming no more that super-counties. The present End Times process, underway in these decades, is intended to 'repeat the same', with those zealots who resist and follow the faux-populist Beasts (one of whom is Donald Yah n Trump) will be destroyed as were the Jewish nationalists by Titus and the allied Maccabees. This month, according to Virgo (aka Mary, aka Isis) we appear to be at the start of Book 12 of the replayed script.

As Mr. Odening details the basis for 'civilization', the uncivilized primitives have been mostly dispossessed already, the balance either owned outright by civilized individuals, corporations, or governments (in many cases these are little more than veiled corporations). So in my ignorance of Mr. Irvin's latest and widest positions, at least, will he like to finish the Trumpian global real estate project as a gentil agent or a Zionist? A dupe or a 'civilized' lord?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Hail Trump!!!! Orange Mane (dyed), Blue Balls of Indra (legit), Scion of David!!!

Funny, after posting the above I happened to catch Rachel Maddow discuss the pandering of uber Zionist apocalyptic Agent Orange (and former President Bannon, crypto propaganda agent of the Jesu, to the White Nationalists, formerly known as White Supremacists (the former term being their PC term du jour). I hope to post more on this item on the Trump thread, but one aspect for here and what I stated in the prior post was a clip of Richard Spencer shouting out "Hail [sic] Trump" during a speech to his followers, and where they raised their right arms and hands in salutes, albeit a few blasphemously had drinks in their raised right hands.

I kept waiting for Rachel to inform us that the English 'Hail' is the direct equivalent (see below) of the German 'Heil', but incredibly she never did. Maybe it is too obvious, but it seems like in not doing so she was afraid to invoke the Hitler comparison so directly. Let the viewer make the equation. Jerry accuses me of doing the same from time to time. Guilty as charged.

But more to the point, is the supreme and dark irony of such 'superior' white snowflake, lemmings revering such a Zionist, who they now make excuses (post Bannon in the WH) for Agent Orange in that the White House's Zionist Globalists have outmaneuvered their Samson-esque agent of KAOS. Obviously, not for long, as Odin will come to the Zionist agent's aid, no doubt. At least, the robot remnant Jew, agent Miller, is yet "in the House" protecting their superior white asses.

Similarly, one can find (lots of) rabbis in Israel insisting that Trump is indeed an apocalyptic character, either fitting their notion of the expected messiah (ignoring Cyrus and Julius Caesar that is), or instead that he is a type of John the Baptist. Conversely, some Christians correctly (IMO) have him as a type of Samson (who also helped precipitate the age of the Judaic kingship), or that he is indeed one of the Beasts, or even other types. They are all certain that the game is on, and in one sense they may indeed be correct.

Consistent with Flavio Barbiero's assertions about the Euro-royals, these Jews are scouring the royal genealogies to find any royal linkages to Drumpf, so that he can be linked to the line of David as their canon dictates. Why would they think to do this, if Barbiero's thesis about the Maccabee family (Barbiero's so-called priestly family) fate is wrong?

As such, I point to the undeniable fact (oops, this is no longer the age of facts) that this real-estate and name branding scam artist is a massive hero to Globalists of both the Zionist and White Supremacist varieties, the latter hiding behind that they only want their own Nation, errr Nation(s). Vanity is indeed Everything, especially for the Insecure.

Wouldn't it be funny if Jared Kushner was renting space out to a crypto-currency related firm in his building at 666 Fifth Avenue. The Biblical implication of the "Mark of the Beast" is that one will not do business, in the marketplace of the (global) new order without the ID mark. If the 'actual' typology from 70 CE is repreated, then the present zealot nationalists, resisting the new order desired by the puppetmasters will indeed be deleted/raptured from the Earth to join Space Jesus, oblivion, and/or some other dimension, but they will not longer be here.

Hail Trump!!! Orange Mane (dyed), Blue Balls of Indra (legit), Scion of David !!!

From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hail

​

 

[Richard Stanley]

Jan thinks that quantum physics is a Zionist plot. Postflavians endorse certain aspects of quantum mechanics. I also think honey is sweet, but that doesn't make me King Samson.

Oh, I forgot. Speaking of quantum mechanics, perhaps Mr. Irvin, and Joe for that matter, would like to explain how Mr. Trump can be a Zionist hero and a White Nationalist hero at the very same time. Does merely waiting 5 minutes between opposing statements qualify for ... something?

This phenomenon is repeatable, as in the case of Mr. Bannon, who "created the platform for the alt-right" on the Zionist Breitbart News. This really speaks to the fact that most people have very short attention spans coupled with a Sheepish (per the SSSM) desire to selectively consume messages that confirm their prior beliefs, and that make them more comfortable and justify their BS.

Because such as Trump fills the airtime with so much doubletalk, everyone on either side of this (and other) dialectic(s) has a chance to satisfy their appetite for slanted BS. Then simply hear what you want, and ignore the rest. The "uncivilized", such as Mr. Odening and Irvin would have them, American indigenous had a phrase for these "civilized" people: "White man speaks with forked tongue."

 

[Steve Outtrim]

I am not sure that Lawrence Lipton was one of the Beats. He doesn't appear in any list of Beats that I could find, though he did write a book about them in 1959 - which seems to be the basis of the connection being made by Duellman. Was he one of the characters in On The Road? How he or Rice tie into MKULTRA is unclear. "Anyone on the cover of TIME is dirty"...maybe so. Type "Time Covers" into Google image search, you get Martin Luther King among many others who probably are dirty. Isn't this guilt by association, though? What contribution did Joe's grandmother make to the conspiracy? Are they alleging she was a secret society member? They are saying she didn't write her own work, her third husband wrote it all, this claim also seems light on evidence.

I am still waiting for them to present their evidence that Joe is a Zionist. Both sides seem to be arguing that the official chronology has been faked.

Perhaps a debate would be a good way to clear the air so we can all re-focus on our common goal of exposing the secret societies and social engineering before Western civilization (if not humanity itself) is completely destroyed by this Satanic pedo-cult. It would need to be moderated, I nominate you Jerry Russell.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for visiting our site.

About Lipton and the beat poets, here's a reference:

http://www.freevenice.org/Sites/iblog-2008/B1986113144/C596342830/E20080502185752/index.html

THE VENICE BEAT POETS –THE GREAT RIVER OUTSIDE THE MAINSTREAM – LAWRENCE LIPTON

By Jim Smith

Lawrence Lipton was something of a father figure to the Beat poets of Venice. He was reviled by many of the poets for his manipulations and commercialism. Yet, they gravitated to his home at 20 Park Avenue, which became the center of the “scene” in Venice.

In contrast to the Beats in San Francisco and New York, many of those in Venice just wanted to be left alone to grasp the nature of reality, to paint and write poetry.

Lipton, on the other hand, wanted the whole world to know about this new way of living that was developing in Venice. Fifty years later, it is still a fair question to ask if Lipton invented the Venice Beat scene, or if the scene invented Lipton.

His book, The Holy Barbarians, told the world about Venice, and in the summer of 1959, much of it seemed to be descending on the community to gawk at the scruffy characters who inhabited the beachfront.

Lipton’s success meant the demise of the “slum by the sea,” as he called Venice. But it also meant that our poets achieved lasting recognition, something they didn’t care about, but ensured that their artistic gift would be a model for generations to come. Without Lipton, many great poems could have been tossed in the trash. As John Arthur Maynard observed in his book, Venice West: The Beat Generation In Southern California: “No one had done more than Lipton to turn an obscure and sincere doctrine of poverty and art into a recognized alternative to conventional life.”

Lipton was considered a charlatan and a huckster by some – and his friendship with Clifford Irving, who wrote a fake autobiography of Howard Hughes, didn’t help – but others, including poets Kenneth Rexroth and Allen Ginsburg accepted him as a peer. ... His poetry books include, Rainbow at Midnight and Bruno In Venice West.​

So apparently he was a beat, and a poet; though I wouldn't venture to judge whether Rainbow at Midnight and Bruno In Venice West belong to the genre of beat poetry. And none of this proves anything about whether Lipton was on the MK-ULTRA payroll.

I can't speak for Joe, but I'm not sure whether the Scaligerian chronology is correct or not. In my opinion, the eras where it is legitimately questioned, are mostly relating to periods of time known as "dark ages". Such as, for example, the early medieval era from 700 to 1000 AD, or the period after the collapse of late Bronze Age civilization, dated conventionally ~1177 BC. These are periods when so little of historical significance happened, that our view of history wouldn't change much if they were entirely fabrications.

Emmet Sweeney's theory that the Achaemenid Persians and the Neo-Babylonians were alter egos, does create a very interesting mash-up out of exilic and post-exilic biblical history. I looked into it and was able to find some archaeology on the ground that seems to contradict Sweeney's theory, but not nearly enough to make me feel confident he's wrong.

Fomenkoism is an entirely different animal from most post-Velikovskian chronological revisionism. It's a willful, wholesale rejection of basic, well-grounded information, and it seems to be strongly politically motivated by Russian nationalism.

Jan Irvin lost all respect for me when I challenged him on his view that quantum mechanics is a Zionist hoax. I don't think he would view me as an unbiased moderator, we would need to come up with somebody else.

Do you think you have enough influence with Jan, to bring him back to the table? Since last Saturday, Jan has apparently blocked all of Joe's supporters from even seeing his Facebook page, and he doesn't answer email. He's decided that Joe is a "lifetime actor". He says he doesn't debate with spooks, he exposes them. It's ridiculous.

 

[Richard Stanley]

I can't speak for Joe, but I'm not sure whether the Scaligerian chronology is correct or not. In my opinion, the eras where it is legitimately questioned, are mostly relating to periods of time known as "dark ages". Such as, for example, the early medieval era from 700 to 1000 AD, or the period after the collapse of late Bronze Age civilization, dated conventionally ~1177 BC. These are periods when so little of historical significance happened, that our view of history wouldn't change much if they were entirely fabrications.

Cline's recent book on the collapse of the Late Bronze Age states that the archaeology demonstrates that for Mycenae (for instance), the alleged winners of the Trojan War vanished from their land, as the appropriate strata shows no sign of occupation for centuries till the rise of Classical Greeks. This is generally true for the entire region of the Western Mediterranean. As I have discussed elsewhere on the forum, this collapse was preceded by the massive Culture War of Atonism, and the actions of Ahkenaten's father (Amenhotep III) via his uniquely documented state journey to Mycenae and his unique assertion of being God on Earth. The collapse was also accompanied by considerable negative climate change, which also seems to have accompanied the collapse of the Egyptian Old Kingdom.

Beyond issues of chronology (and don't forget Protestant Scaliger's Jesuit chronology pal, Kircher), there is the implications of multiple 'Trojan' Wars (the Baltic region, France, the Nile, etc..). Is any Trojan War by the same name and/or circumstances still a Trojan War?

Not disconnected from this is the phenomenon of the Greek Danoi and the so-called Hebrew tribe of Dan (the tribe of the Biblical Samson, the agent of Kaos of his day). The Classical Greek 'mythos' is that the Danoi originated in Egypt, as did a significant percentage of their higher gnowledge. The archaeology appears to demonstrate that the Danoi and the tribe of Dan were one and the same. This finding is further support for my thesis, which is a dagger in the heart and mind to such as White Supremacists and ethno-Zionists.

As I have stated before, such thinking is rooted in the creation of Romanticism at the earliest foundation of the so-called modern university system, at Gottingen University in the 1730's. This is the unfounded basis that Blood and Soil rooted Feelings trump reason and facts, where sardonically the modern university system was supposed to be based upon rigorous scientific Reason. Romanticism was anything but, yet the white chimpigs du jour are yet feeding at its trough, saluting their latest (Zionist / Globalist) Pied Piper who is leading them over the cliffs of Gadara yet again, ala Hitler and the Maccabees and Akhenaten before. And ironically, the Church, who helped sponsor Hitler later blamed Nazism on the excesses of Modernism, and not the ironically named Romanticism.

The result of such confusion(s) lead to the next desired global synthesis (of the swirling winds of Moriah).

clear the air so we can all re-focus on our common goal of exposing the secret societies and social engineering before Western civilization (if not humanity itself) is completely destroyed by this Satanic pedo-cult.

This all is a long running process, and the analytic "focus" is indeed important. If the secret society(ies) are to fulfill and complete their global real-estate ambitions, then the main purpose of such as the "Satanic pedo-cult" and other aspects of destroying confidence in institutions, are necessary aspects of their plan(s). In the lurid case of pedo-cult and other forms of real and perceived behavioral excess, the main purpose is to distract attention from the achieving of the larger main goals of the day.

In this same vein, Zionism cast narrowly (the greater Israeli state and the so-called (second) Third Temple) is yet another distractionary flag and/or shibboleth. The apocalyptic Futurist Christians are frothing at the mouth for the completion of the Third Temple so that Christ will come and destroy the Jew's (obviously false) messiah, and destroy these same Jews once and for all. Meanwhile the oligarchs whose ancestors have created all these societies, their exoteric religions, and their very Western Culture can rip the metaphoric tablecloth off the table.

The Satan of your Satanic pedo-cult is thus baked into the cake of the process and the culture, which is what most people, whether religious or not, refuse to acknowledge. They prefer the more comfortable stance of thinking that some point in their own earlier life that such as Western Culture achieved some obvious mythical apex position and thus we are entitled to this perch. This is belied by the overt statements in their own religious (culture ) canons, that this so-called Satan will indeed do what is being done, and furthermore that this god claims to be the author of Everything, both Good and Evil.

Modern secularists have unprofitably thrown the tar baby out with the bath water, by ignoring this principle. Religious liberalism has taught that this God and his last son are only about Love, and thus that his earlier son (Satan) is some anomaly whose mere existence is an implication we must ignore.

This state of Ignoring allows such as a Trump to come along, sowing his chaos, after the Pope has quietly declared the advent of a new messiah, immediately after visiting the Bottomless Pit. Tick-tock, tick-tock, the stars and planets are a precise form of clock, and just as on 9/11/2001 they were in a most specific order, on the 23rd of this month they will be in the order of Revelation 12. Is this a divine manifestation, or an artifact of Man (and his secret societies) looking at the stars from long past.

No doubt Cultural Degradation exists, but it is not the goal, but merely a means ... to help incite the apocalyptic violence considered necessary to sell the new order. Thus, the pedo-cult phenomenon is akin to the incitement of race hatred, and other phenomenon. Have no doubt, that the new messianic avatar to be shoved down everyone's throat will provide the solutions to all these problems, and if one doesn't 'believe' this, then they will find their perdition.

Both the Jewish and Christian canons, as well as the Roman, state that their Final Solution will be global in nature. At the prior turn of the age, the Jewish nationalists that drank their version of Jonestown Kool-aid found eternal perdition, and those Christians today who can't grok the important global subtext, instead focusing on the canonic use of the term 'nations' will become the dead typology of the prior Zealots.

Just as the Roman Republic was subsumed by the Imperium (that quietly slipstreamed us Christianity with the help of the Maccabee priesthood), the American Confederation of nations, (aka States) was subsumed into one Nation via, first the Constitution and then the Civil War. Hence the grand (BS) 'states' are today no better than glorified counties. This is the microcosmic plan for the completing the global process. The colonies that became the states were all founded with the imprimatur of the Euro-royals, and their secret societies (Freemasons and Jesuits).

The dilemma here, is that there is no microsecond of Western Civilization that is not part of this evolving process, and so unless one is willing to refocus onto the substantive Process, one merely needs to decide whether perdition is in their cards or not. Saving innocent children is a great endeavor, but one might potentially save more of them by exposing the larger construct than looking at pizza.

In retrospect, I consider that the entire narrative of Monica Lewinsky was a lurid scam, intended to culturally and politically inflame - creating the same distraction. Among other things, she was supposed to have been eating some fresh sausage while under the Oval Office desk of Bill Clinton, while he was eating pizza and talking on the phone about deploying troops to Kosovo. Ironically we now have someone in the same Oval Office who is just as perverse, creating chaotic distractions right and left, so that no one can figure out what side of the fence he is really on. The common thread in all this Hall of Mirrors chaos, is ... Jesuit influence, from John Podesta to Steve Bannon. Same as it ever was, from the foundation of the USA.

Ronald Reagan, the Great Communicator, and big spender, could not be admitted into yesterday's Republican Party, which could not be admitted into Trump's work-in-progress conversion of it into the National Socialist Worker's Party of today. But Reagan arguably got this latest ball rolling with his destruction in the people's confidence in American institutions.

So, Joe and Jan (nice Jewish names) can argue all they want about who is a Zionist spook or not, but I'll stay on the bigger picture for what little time I have remaining. In the meantime, I'll guess that they will both stay away from the book When Scotland was Jewish, and its wider implications.

In conclusion, I'll just add that I'm also not sure that (g)lobalism is the real problem, so much as the looting profiteers running it. The American flag is modeled upon the British East India Company flag for a reason.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Jan Irvin lost all respect for me when I challenged him on his view that quantum mechanics is a Zionist hoax.

Jerry, I gnow we've been through this before, but for Jan's sake, there is no evidence, at all, that electrons and electricity exist. One simply cannot see these things in either a flat world or a spherical one. Something makes this computer appear to work, but it certainly can't be electrons. Oh yes, it's those contrary 'holes'.

Never mind.

OK, what about those photons. Not buying it, either the waves or the particles. Can't see um. And nobodies talking about holes here, except for black holes. And black rabbit holes.

The light is all in your head.

 

[Jerry Russell]

We did our podcast this week (Sept. 8) on the same general topics as this thread, which I've renamed to match the podcast title.

Craig Rice; Anatoly Fomenko; Flat Earth. Sophistry! Fri. Sept. 8

 

[Richard Stanley]

Interesting show guys. But why did you ignore talking about the non-existent electrons and photons?

I thought Jerry might mention the alternative controversy over the archaeological strata pointing the the dark age between the Late Bronze Age Collapse and the rise of Classical Greece. This claim suffers from the similar problem as discussed for the precedence of the Christian corpus, as we know it, over that of the Judaic.

This dark age extended over the entire east Mediterranean region, with even Egypt showing signs of being weakened, at least, as the sole surviving society. All of the affected cities examined show signs of centralized destruction within their palace districts, accompanied by complete abandonment by their respective general populations. Albeit some show signs that there was also a cluster of regional 'apocalyptic' scale earthquakes. The point being, how did the alleged chronology fakers, much later in time, understand how to cover all this up?

How did earthquakes and fires, etc. limit themselves more to the property of the nobles? How did a Greek tribe, the Danoi, end up becoming a Hebrew tribe, the Dan? How did the Egyptians end up recording on a temple wall that they let a tribe of the Sea Peoples settle in the delta? The Philistines, the Peleset, settled via peaceful immigration into Canaan/Palestine.

As I discussed in my thread on the Egyptian Origins of Freemasonry, the story of Samson (the Danite Nazarite) including the bizarre destruction of the god Dagon, via the toppling of his statue (twice) and thus the priests of Dagon finally had to admit to their people that Yahweh was indeed victorious. Of course, the priests knew all along what was up, but people are ever so gullible.

It is clear that Yahwn likes to conflate aspects, all the while claiming that he is some kind of Greek Logician guru. As I mentioned prior about Odening mentioning a pre-existing Xianity (loosely conceived) because of parallel functioning trinities, this is still a far leap as claiming today's Xian construction predates the Judaic corpus.

I did some additional looking at web discussions about Yahwn's positions on the drug counterculture and found rather erudite counter-positions (by admitted drug users of various types), where they correctly complained that Yahwn was a sophistic sub-meister of logical fallacy. These errors are so obvious that one would have to conclude that Yahwn could not possibly be an agent of an elite secret society. But maybe this is all part of the magic. Such as the following mocking visual imagery of the "gears that don't mesh". Rather, perhaps all this is part of a larger 'fear porn' whose sophist intent is to degrade culture through paranoiac (feigned) complaints coming through the back door.



The rather sane logical criticisms of Yahwn's positions also revealed that Yahwn had something of a metamorphosis in crankiness cropping up around podcast #100. This evoking in me, visions of Saul/Paul and Abraham. In the latter case, under DeVere's revelation we might see a parallel with the red-headed Arya Abram [sic], initiating the fake ID enterprise in becoming the Hebraic Abraham.

In any case, as I have discussed elsewhere, the conflation error is in extrapolating / linking the actual larger mind control project, writ large, to the actual results of the narrower mind altering drug aspect. While the larger project appears to have produced tangible results, the actual individual public usage of mind altering substances, as supposedly intended by the project, clearly has/had negative connotations for the PTB. From their desire to continue manipulating culture, these substances, used more widely, present a danger to the PTB by exposing to the user the manifold problems within society, one's created to benefit the elites, our so-called Shepherds.

This is where I continue to disagree with Joe (and obviously Yahwn), in that the culture being degraded is just a pile of layered manipulations. The manipulations, enable individuals at all levels to justify their hypocrisy, and sardonically enable one to criticize Jews for their vain pretensions to being a Chosen People, while such as the gentil Yahwn, yet claim it for his goy sheep. The Chosen People Must Die, Long Live the Chosen People.

The modern flat earth movement started in the 1950's, I believe, in northern Los Angeles County with the Flat Earth Society. It's anti-intellectual heritage seems to have begun with early Christianity, with documentary record, at least, of most pagans, at the time, understanding that the Earth was a sphere.

Taking such a flat stance has the advantage of helping Christians to filter out the astrological and other esoterica from their analysis, thus enabling the Shepherds to roll out the cyclic schemes when the time is right, in league with degrading the culture du jour so as to "prepare the way" for the new age, and its official BS messiah. Greet the New Boss, same as the Old Boss.

In my opinion, Yahwn is simply revealing that he is a lowgrade gatekeeper unhappy that we are revealing the secret sauce, while he bloviates that he is the master of the (faux) Logos.

 

[Jerry Russell]

This dark age extended over the entire east Mediterranean region, with even Egypt showing signs of being weakened, at least, as the sole surviving society. All of the affected cities examined show signs of centralized destruction within their palace districts, accompanied by complete abandonment by their respective general populations. Albeit some show signs that there was also a cluster of regional 'apocalyptic' scale earthquakes. The point being, how did the alleged chronology fakers, much later in time, understand how to cover all this up?

Regarding the Greek dark age, I don't think the revisionists are making any claims at all that the chronology was faked. What they are seeing is more like a comedy of errors. Authors such as Herodotus, Manetho, Thucydides and even Josephus were among the first to think of themselves as any sort of historians in the modern sense. And what did they have to work with? A mish-mash of already ancient legends and propaganda, chaotic calendar systems, and a cacophony of languages. And everything they wrote had to meet the approval of elite sponsors. Eusebius and other medieval chroniclers tried to make sense of the chaos, and then their work went lost and had to be reconstructed. In Scaliger's time this intellectual construct was codified and cast in concrete. Then the archaeologists came along, made many great discoveries, and tried to fit everything into the Scaligerian system, resulting in new eras and epicycles.

They don't deny that the Late Bronze Age collapse occurred, or that it was synchronous across the Mediterranean. If I'm understanding correctly, what they're saying is that it only happened once, and that civilization recovered fairly quickly without a long dark age.

In my opinion, Yahwn is simply revealing that he is a lowgrade gatekeeper unhappy that we are revealing the secret sauce, while he bloviates that he is the master of the (faux) Logos.

Joe has known Jan pretty well for a long time, and I think he's seen this blowup coming. He sees it more as a manifestation of Jan's unhappy love life, high stress, and bad temper. I don't see any reason to doubt that analysis.

If you follow Giles' Facebook page, it seems he's having similar problems. Lonely-hearted and maybe broke. Seeing any part of the truth about our world is highly disorienting. People crack up.

I'm sure I make mistakes myself.

 

[Richard Stanley]

They don't deny that the Late Bronze Age collapse occurred, or that it was synchronous across the Mediterranean. If I'm understanding correctly, what they're saying is that it only happened once, and that civilization recovered fairly quickly without a long dark age.

The archaeologists are claiming that the actual collapse occurred over many decades, as a cumulative process of sorts, albeit not as Machiavellian as I suggest. And, interestingly, it had a bad positive feedback loop in the shutdown of the widespread (relative) global trade of the day. The construct of the modern nation did not exist then.

Since the time of Scaliger's and Kircher's efforts, massive data, such as clay tablets from numerous cities, have been uncovered that help confirm aspects of the mainstream narrative, even if not always helping with chronology. As Gordon demonstrated, such clay tablets helped confirm narrative details in the OT, while Hadas demonstrated that the narrative styles, and other parallel cultural aspects, employed demonstrate otherwise common influences, besides the Mosaic inversion.

With all these extras, I suggest that our major thesis is yet immune from major chronological revisionism.

As the Hellenizers were also into the latest 'science' of Astrology, and these symbols were so embedded into the Bible along with other Platonic elements, I think that this might be the greatest indicator that the mainstream chronology is relatively correct. And especially that the Book of Revelation's use of millennialism of 24 periods is a clear allusion to the Zodiacal Great Year, albeit rounded down.

Joe has known Jan pretty well for a long time, and I think he's seen this blowup coming. He sees it more as a manifestation of Jan's unhappy love life, high stress, and bad temper. I don't see any reason to doubt that analysis.

This is no excuse for such dishonorable and incoherent behavior. "Unhappy love life?" That's why God made blow-up dolls. Maybe he should listen to our old friend who moved to Fiji, and must have created several fine young cannibals by now.

I understand through the Oregon grapevine that Yahwn is indeed talking to our old friend, former non-founder of a vitamin company, absconder of 100 pounds of medical marijuana, and farmer whose crops need no water whatsoever.

 

[Joe Atwill]

Richard, please don't troll Loren. It's cruel and pointless. A question; aren't there coins bearing rulers that Fomenko claims are nonexistent? If so, how does he deal with this?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Richard, please don't troll Loren. It's cruel and pointless.

Is this trolling? Perhaps, because I myself was incoherent right there? Given that my then unnamed friend was a staunch advocate of David Duke (just one controlled opposition to Zionism) I should not be asking for coherence when such an advocate engages with another ethnon? As such, I should have said that Yahwn "should not listen to ..."

In any case, the formerly unnamed entity is engaged in trashing us yet, so I fail to understand why this is 'trolling', especially when said formerly unnamed entity admitted to all of these degradations, and more. The formerly unnamed entity was asked politely more than once to properly contextualize his posts, but refused to do so. As they say there, "he is not in Kansas anymore."

A question; aren't there coins bearing rulers that Fomenko claims are nonexistent? If so, how does he deal with this?

I can't remember, as it has been some time since I read Fomenko. Perhaps Jerry does? His paper books have no index, but I understand they are indeed indexed for online searches.

 

[Jerry Russell]

A question; aren't there coins bearing rulers that Fomenko claims are nonexistent? If so, how does he deal with this?

'History: Fiction or Science', V. 1, p. 92, Fomenko argues that coin minting is basically the same process as printing. So, he says that there can't be any coins much older than the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. Thus, Fomenko seems to be saying that all ancient coins are either mis-dated, or fake.

I understand through the Oregon grapevine that Yahwn is indeed talking to our old friend

To be specific about what the Oregon grapevine said: I noticed that Loren has been posting comments to Jan's facebook page. A privilege which is no longer extended to me. But, Loren attempted to post a link to our rebuttal. Jan replied to Loren as follows:

"The fact that you would repost such obvious sophist drivel here, Loren Hough, forces the questions on you... as you're obviously not using the trivium and critical thinking when considering the facts. ... Jerry's rebuttal is obvious sophistry by anyone with ANY intelligence. I've deleted your link to it because it's so pathetic it deserves no attention - which you're obviously trying to give it here."
​

In spite of having been blocked from Jan's facebook, I am still able to view the material -- through technological sleuthing means which shall not be further revealed.

Rick, I don't mean to defend Loren here, but why do you say he's still trashing us? At Jan's page, he was defending us, or at least Joe. He's still filling the Caesarsmessiah.com forum with all sorts of stuff, including white nationalist & antisemitic stuff, but I doubt he ever says anything about us here.

 

[Jerry Russell]

I doubt he ever says anything about us here.

I was wrong about that: Loren's very most recent post at Joe's forum is titled "Why fry each other when there are other bigger fish to fry, frying the whole world?" (my spelling & punctuation) and then there's a link to our podcast.

Teamwork is good, but there do seem to be legitimate questions about whether we're all on the same team. And that's not an accusation that anyone is a "shill", it's just acknowledging that we seem to have perspectives that are very different in some regards.

 

[Richard Stanley]

'History: Fiction or Science', V. 1, p. 92, Fomenko argues that coin minting is basically the same process as printing. So, he says that there can't be any coins much older than the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. Thus, Fomenko seems to be saying that all ancient coins are either mis-dated, or fake.

Since he is moving such as Nero to 'our' 14th century then he claims a gap of about 1 century between the minting of gold and silver coins and the invention of the printing press. However, there was minting of base metal coins before that, so this seems to be a problem.

On the prior page (91), he discusses the medieval gap in gold coins:

Numismatists attempt to give some sort of explanation to this mysterious "medieval gap" in coinage history. It is suggested that "gold coinage had been ceased by an order issued by Pepin" [8th century CE]. The council at Reims [1148 CE] allegedly forbade the use of the golden solidi of imperial Rome, and the type of coinage used allegedly "became barbaric" in the VIII century ([64], page 151).

Doesn't this imply that the "ancient" Western European coinage is really medieval and minted after the XIV century A.D., cast way back in time by the Scaligerian chronology?​

This raises several issues. It is hard to imagine an edict from Reims directed at the usage of a Roman imperial coin during the time of the emperors ruling from Rome. Also, if one looks at the amount of personages and names around such as a city like Reims (or Rheims) then it seems rather hard to reconcile with supposedly ancient Roman chroniclers. That said, if one looks at the claimed history for Reims, as being founded by the Remi, and that Reims was an important city of the Normans (with their Romanesque architecture), who Barbiero and I, at least suspect of being connected to Rome by elite descent, then Fomenko might argue for some support here.

In any case, many gold bugs today like to talk about the various relatively recent removals of gold from common usage. Perhaps we are merely looking at a similar type of phenomenon between the 'medieval gap' and now?

Here's what Wikipedia says about the solidus:

Julian's solidus c.361 (Note the apparel)​

The solidus (Latin for "solid"; pl. solidi), nomisma (Greek: νόμισμα, nómisma, lit. "coin"), or bezant was originally a relatively pure gold coin issued in the Late Roman Empire. Under Constantine, who introduced it on a wide scale, it had a weight of about 4.5 grams. It was largely replaced in Western Europe by Pepin the Short's currency reform, which introduced the silver-based pound/shilling/penny system, under which the shilling (Latin: solidus) functioned as a unit of account equivalent to 12 pence, eventually developing into the French sou. In Eastern Europe, the nomisma was gradually debased by the Byzantine emperors until it was abolished by Alexius I in 1092, who replaced it with the hyperpyron, which also came to be known as a "bezant". The Byzantine solidus also inspired the originally slightly less pure Arabian dinar.

In late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, the solidus also functioned as a unit of weight equal to 1/72 of a pound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_(coin)​

 

[Richard Stanley]

To be specific about what the Oregon grapevine said: I noticed that Loren has been posting comments to Jan's facebook page. A privilege which is no longer extended to me. But, Loren attempted to post a link to our rebuttal. Jan replied to Loren as follows:

"The fact that you would repost such obvious sophist drivel here, Loren Hough, forces the questions on you... as you're obviously not using the trivium and critical thinking when considering the facts. ... Jerry's rebuttal is obvious sophistry by anyone with ANY intelligence. I've deleted your link to it because it's so pathetic it deserves no attention - which you're obviously trying to give it here."

Jan's response is typical of what others have reported of his methodology. He has created the invincible shield of his trivium from which he need not be bothered to explain why the rebuttal is wrong. He is the Chosen One of the god, Yah.

Rick, I don't mean to defend Loren here, but why do you say he's still trashing us? At Jan's page, he was defending us, or at least Joe. He's still filling the Caesarsmessiah.com forum with all sorts of stuff, including white nationalist & antisemitic stuff, but I doubt he ever says anything about us here.

I was under the impression that the previously unnamed entity was kvetching to the Chosen One about having been booted from the Postflaviana forum (for cause). If this is incorrect, I will retract my otherwise correct statements.

Teamwork is good, but there do seem to be legitimate questions about whether we're all on the same team. And that's not an accusation that anyone is a "shill", it's just acknowledging that we seem to have perspectives that are very different in some regards.

It would really be nice to have such as Jan triviate why 'civilized' gentil Globalism is better and/or different than Zionist Globalism, but doing so is likely too trivial for him.

 

[Richard Stanley]

I was wrong about that: Loren's very most recent post at Joe's forum is titled "Why fry each other when there are other bigger fish to fry, frying the whole world?"

I missed this last night. Are you suggesting this is a Freudian slip? Why would the previously unnamed entity want (us) to fry the whole world?

I know that red-headed Alexander the Great (and his elite Hellenistic Jewish friends) wanted to have the whole world, but as his fried oyster? He wanted to have a uniform global currency, uniform global trade practices, and even a uniform global Greek culture.

Did Aristotle teach Alexander the trivium and the quadrivium? Was this done in traditional Greek gymnasium style, in the nude. But only the elite boys were allowed into the gymnasium, right? How does Jan mange all this?

It does make sense then about the oysters, as they are an aphrodisiac, and Greek love was more than the norm then, it was expected.

 

[Tyrone McCloskey]

Here's Larry Lipton from a sleaze classic, The Hypnotic Eye (1960), one of the most nihilistic pieces of cinematic crap to ever grace the silver screen. Also, the script was co-written by William Woodfield, an associate of Lawrence Schiller (great name for a spook) who, with Woodfield, shot the last set of studio photos of Marilyn Monroe (another spook/fake death IMO) and Schiller then went on to record the last testament of Jack Ruby who confesses he was all alone in killing Oswald before being fake killed by fake cancer. Like swinging from branch to branch, all spooks connect some how-