Sept. 22: Talk about Ralph Ellis

jameslaroche

New Member
Jerry,
Thanks for archiving the show here.
Other priorities prevented me from catching last Friday's episode at Revolution Radio.
It will be very good if you continue to back up future shows here.
BTW, good show! Interesting topic.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi James,

Thanks for listening. We have been archiving the shows here, from the beginning. It's just that it usually takes me a few days to get them here. And it's some extra work for me to process the Skype Recorder file. So, copying from the Revolution Radio archive will probably continue to be the routine practice.

The podcast archives are:

http://postflaviana.org/podcasts/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2016-archive/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2015/

I've been in touch with Ralph Ellis on Facebook, and he pointed out some errors in our podcast that he'd like to correct.

1. Ralph doesn't believe that Akhenaten represented himself as Adam, the first man. He thinks that the Genesis story is derived from the Hymn to the Aten, by Akhenaten. But, some redactor mistook the hymn for a creation epic. That's how the chronological transition occurred.

2. Hebrews 7 is trying to justify how Jesus could become high priest when he was not a Levite. It is said that Jesus took an oath. This seems to be describing an application for a real Earthly position, not a mere spiritual position.

3. It was Octavian Augustus, not Mark Antony, who sent a gift of a slave girl to the Parthian court. (This is the slave girl that Ralph believes to be the daughter of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, and who oddly grew up to become Queen Ourania.)

4. Ralph says that Im-Manu-El is not a translation, it is pesher. He suggests that Josephus searched the Torah for a similar name to Manu.
 
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Good show.

Regarding Paul and Josephus, there is also the theory that Josephus was an older mentor of Saul/Paul.

Jerry, I'm not sure why you came up with the notion that Paul was a goy, because the story makes much of his Jewish origins, and then the special notation that he, as a Jew, was also a Roman citizen - and thus that he could take advantage of Roman government protections whenever he pissed off his Jewish brethren. Further, it would make little or no sense for Paul to be arguing to the Jewish disciples of Jesus that they should expand their ministry to the goyim if Paul himself was goy. In this case, Paul wouldn't have had any authority to be in this position in the first place.

Augustus also sent another of Cleo and Julius's daughters off to marry the king of Mauritania(?) I believe. Earlier Cleo had pressured Antony to assassinate Cleo's sister while she was in exile in Pergamum, if I remember right. Cleo's sister was a threat to her position and had conspired against Julius.

As I remember from one of Ellis's early books he admitted that his mother was of the masonic Order of the Easter Star(?), and that he felt that there was indeed some untoward steering of human affairs in all this.

As to MMGW, or just GW, according to some regarding the Milankovich cycles (of which Precession is one of the three) the combined trend should be towards cooling and not warming. And if one goes by the extraordinarily long length of the present Holocene warming period, compared to prior warm periods, shown in the Greenland ice records, we should have long returned to ice age conditions. This, but for the rise of human agricultural practices (e.g. rice farming and deforestation) in the last 8 or 9 thousand years.
 
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Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Jerry, I'm not sure you came up with the notion that Paul was a goy,
Yes, that was a pretty serious momentary f***-up. My only excuse is that, between Paul's Roman citizenship, his effort to reach out to Greek and Roman goy, and rejection of Jewish law, he sure acted like a Gentile. My other excuse is that I realized I was wrong the moment I blurted it out, and backpedaled right away.

And if one goes by the extraordinarily long length of the present Holocene warming period, compared to prior warm periods, shown in the Greenland ice records, we should have long returned to ice age conditions. This, but for the rise of human agricultural practices (e.g. rice farming and deforestation) in the last 8 or 9 thousand years.
Yes, one cannot rule out that MMGW might be a good thing, provided it doesn't go too far.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Josephus's Life is very dense with references to characters named Jesus or Justus. The entire work is mercifully brief, and I've prepared a verse-by-verse summary.

1 gives Josephus’ genealogy. He says he is descended from Jonathan son of Hasmoneus.

2 says that Josephus took training from Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes, and apprenticed himself to Banus who lived in the desert. He chose to live according to the rules of the Pharisees.

3: Josephus goes to Rome, experiences a shipwreck, and meets Nero’s wife Poppea.

4-5: Josephus takes note of a developing rebellion. The high priests pretend to be of the same mind as the people, while actually hoping the Romans will put down the rebellion.

6: Cestius is defeated by the Jews. Other people of the region attack the Jews, forcing them to band together in solidarity.

7. Josephus is sent to Galilee to persuade the hotheads to disarm.

8. At Sepphoris, the people are allied with the Romans. Josephus allays their fears and placates the surrounding Galileeans.

9 describes Justus of Tiberias, son of Pistus, author of a history. He is trying to incite the citizens of Tiberius to fight against Sepphoris because the latter city has accomodated the Romans, and received favors as a result. Josephus says "As my narrative progresses I shall tell about this man's wicked character and lifestyle and how he and his brother were the main authors of our destruction.”
10 says that at Gischala, John son of Levi has maintained control, is allied with the Romans, and has fortified and rebuilt the city after rebel attacks.
11: At Gamala, the administrator Varus was killing Jews in hopes of being promoted to become King. The rightful king, Philip son of Jacimus, returned and put an end to persecution of Jews, but also continued Gamala’s allegiance with the Romans.
12. Josephus and his colleagues from the Sanhedrin approached Justus of Tiberias and asked him to demolish a temple. Jesus son of Sapphias, "whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a faction of mariners and poor people” (where was this already mentioned?) beat them to it, setting the palace on fire and looting it.
13. Josephus recovers remaining goods from the burned temple at Tiberias. Then he goes to visit John of Gischala. John is profiteering by seizing corn stores, and by buying oil in Gischala and selling it in blockaded Caesarea Philippi.
14. Josephus hires brigands to be mercenaries, and uses them to keep peace.
15-19 John of Gischala foments revolt in Tiberias, joined by Justus and Pistus. Josephus puts down the revolt, but deals mercifully with the rebels, although they tried to kill him.
20-21 John asks forgiveness. Josephus goes to Sepphoris.
22 People of Sepphoris send to Jesus warlord of brigands in the borders of Ptolemais. He attacks with his gang. Josephus traps Jesus, but lets him reassemble his troops.
23-24. Agrippa sends an army to destroy the Gamala fortress. Ebutius and Josephus engage and then avoid combat.
25. John son of Levi continues to foment rebellion against Josephus.
26. Procurator Ptolemy is ambushed by brigands. Josephus tricks them, takes the plunder and returns it to Ptolemy.
27. Jesus son of Sapphias (a ruler in Tiberias) a revolutionary, calls for rebellion against Josephus because of this trickery.
28-29 Josephus dresses in black to appear pitiful, and lies again about his intent for the plunder. A dispute arises between factions, and Josephus escapes.
30 Josephus intimidates his opponents by scourging and cutting off the hand of one of the boldest of them.
31 Josephus sends a house of nobles from Tarichea on a boat to Hippos.
32-33 The Tiberians want to ally with the king. Josephus goes to Tarichea, bringing back some boats to Tiberias. The Tiberians were afraid of Josephus’s ships, and so they maintained their allegiance with him.
34. Josephus punishes “the author of this rebellion, named Cleitus”.
35. Josephus warns Justus of Tiberias and his father Pistus, and then lets them loose. Josephus mentions that the people of Gamala have cut off Justus’s brother’s hands, and executed a Jesus who was the husband of the sister of a person named Justus who was the brother of Chares, one of Philip’s kinsmen.
36. Philip son of Jacimus returns to Gamala, as instructed by Agrippa.
37, Here Josephus tells the story of a rebellion in Gamala, led by “Joseph the midwife’s son”. They are the ones who killed Chares, his kinsman Jesus, brother of Justus of Tiberias (?). Josephus builds fortifications.
38. John son of Levi of Gischala, sends Simon his brother to Jerusalem. Simon consults with Simon son of Gamaliel. Simon son of Gamaliel consults with Ananus, and Jesus the son of Gamala. They decide to clip Josephus’s wings.
39. Simon, and John’s brother, bribe high priest Artanus, who had supported Josephus. They agree to send a deputation consisting of Jonathan, Ananias (humble pharisees), and Jozar and Simon, of priestly stock. Their goal: to turn the people away from Josephus.
40. Jonathan and his deputation receive 40,000 pieces of silver from the public treasury. They send for a Galilean named Jesus who is currently in Jerusalem with 600 soldiers.
41. Jesus son of Gamalas, a friend and companion of Josephus, notifies Josephus’s father of the plot. Josephus wants to go home, but the people persuade him to stay.
42. Josephus has a vision in a dream, telling him to fight the Romans.
43. Josephus gathers an army, and goes to pretend to fight Placidus near Ptolemais.
44-47 Josephus jockeys for position against Jonathan.
48 Jonathan retreats to a castle owned by Jesus. The Galileans support Josephus against Jonathan.
49 Josephus proclaims his virtue, and negotiates with Jonathan.
50 Josephus exposes Jonathan as a traitor to Josephus.
51. Josephus takes the people to Sogane to prevent them killing Jonathan.
52. Josephus sends emissaries to Jerusalem.
53. Jonathan goes to Tiberias, expecting a welcome from Jesus the governor. But, Jesus has been replaced by Silas. Silas summons Josephus.
54. Jonathan, Jesus and Justus plot with the citizens of Tiberias against Josephus.
55. The group answers a fake call to arms against non-existant Romans.
56. Returning, Ananias proposes a public fast without weapons. John plots to bring armed soldiers to capture Josephus. Josephus brings daggars to the fast.
57. Jesus asks Josephus what happened to his plundered gold and silver.
58-62 Josephus maneuvers to capture Jonathan and his friends.
63-64 Josephus sends Jonathan, Ananias, Simon and Joazar to Jerusalem for sentencing.
65 Josephus rants against inaccuracies in Justus’s history of the war, which has just been published. He asserts that his history (JW) is better.
66. Josephus threatens John’s followers, who abandon him to join Josephus.
67. Sepphoris applies to Cestius Gallus for protection.
68. Galileans are outraged against Sepphoris and also Tiberias because of disloyalty.
69. Josephus saves Tiberias from the Galileans, by making an eloquent speech.
70. Justus son of Pistus flees to the king, in fear that the Tiberians prefer Josephus.
71. Josephus battles the Romans at Sepphoris.
72. Josephus is injured in battle at Capernaum, and sent to Tarichea.
73-74 Vespasian arrives, and the reader is referred to JW for the rest of the story.
75. Josephus collaborates with Vespasian and Titus, and is given the holy books. Returning from Thecoa, he recognizes three captives being crucified; he pleads with Titus for their lives; two perish, one survives.
76-80 Josephus continues to prosper under the care of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. The treatise is dedicated to Epaphroditus.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
The above is still pretty dense. To boil it down further: Josephus is facing two different types of problems in Galilee. In Tiberias, Justus son of Pistus is a zealot who is seeking a war against Rome. In Geschala, Gamala, and Sepphoris, the problem is that the leaders want to work directly with the Romans, bypassing Josephus. In general, Josephus's strategy is to support Geschala, Gamala and Sepphoris in their desire to work with the Romans, while trying to bring them under his control as well. At Tiberias, Josephus wants to connect with the people and with other Galileans in the area, to contain Justus.

John of Gischala's behavior is strange. At first he wants an alliance with Rome. But after his city is destroyed by rebels, he rebuilds it. At that point, it seems he has changed sides and joined the rebels. He is always collaborating with Justus and attempting to undermine Josephus.

Justus of Tiberias is introduced as being "the main author of our destruction" along with his brother, who is not named in section 9. In section 12, Josephus is trying to persuade Justus to destroy Herod's temple at Bethmaus, but Jesus son of Sapphias gets the job done first. The text says that Josephus has mentioned this person before; but if so, it's not obvious where. Is this Jesus son of Sapphias, also the one who is Justus's brother?

Jesus son of Sapphias appears again in section 27, where he is calling for rebellion against Josephus. He is identified as a ruler from Tiberias. In Section 53 and 54, a Jesus who is governor of Tiberias is again plotting against Josephus.

At several other points in the story, a Jesus (without any other descriptive phrase) is acting very similar to this Jesus son of Sapphias, governor of Tiberias. In section 22, Josephus is attacked by a Jesus who is identified as a warlord of brigands, In section 40, a Jesus who is a Galilean turns up in Jerusalem with 600 armed men. In section 48, Jesus is the owner of a castle, and a companion of Jonathan. In section 57, Jesus is interrogating Josephus about what he has done with the Jews' plunder.

At JW 2.20.4, a Jesus son of Sapphias is identified as a high priest, and he is assigned to be the general of Idumea for the Jewish side. At JW 3.9.7, a Jesus son of Saphat is "the principal head of a band of robbers" at Tiberias, where he wins a skirmish against Vespasian's representative, Valerian.

Confusingly, sections 35 and 37 discuss a Jesus who is some relative of Justus (either brother or brother-in-law), who is killed at Gamala. But this doesn't seem to be the same Jesus as the one who is the rebel leader, because he's dead while the rebel leader is still fighting on.

Section 38 of the Life mentions a Jesus son of Gamala, a high priest, who collaborates with Simon son of Gamaliel and two other priests to concoct a rather sophisticated propaganda operation against Josephus, to "cut his wings". Strangely, this same Jesus son of Gamala is said to be a friend of Josephus, and he warns Josephus's father about the plot. Or is it the same Jesus of Gamala? if so, the motivations seem complex.

A certain Jesus son of Gamala, a high priest, is also a key actor at JW 4.3.9 through 4.5.2. The scene is at Jerusalem after the fall of Galilee to the Romans. The Idumeans have come to fight against the Romans for Jerusalem. Jesus son of Gamala speaks from a wall, and tries to persuade the Idumeans that they should not support the Rebellion, but rather should take up arms against the rebels and subdue them. The Idumeans are unmoved, and Jesus is killed along with Ananus.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I'm glad it was helpful. To further boil down my summary of the Jesus characters, I would say that Jesus son of Gamala seems to be depicted as a very different character from Jesus son of Sapphias, governor of Tiberias. And, all the Jesuses discussed above seem to boil down to these two; I don't see any evidence for more than that. (Jesus ben Ananius, the 'Lunatic Jesus', would be a third, not included in this analysis. There may be more.)

There are many similarities between these two characters. Both of them seem to have brothers: Jesus son of Gamala's brother is Simon, and Jesus son of Sapphias' brother seems to be Justus (though that's not perfectly clear.) Both Jesuses are high priests, and involved with leadership of the rebellion. Both have some similarities to biblical Jesus, as Ralph covers in his books.

But still, for 'son of Gamala' and 'son of Sapphias' to be the same person, there must have been some sort of conspiracy or coverup. Son of Gamala is acting like a steady Herodian, while son of Sapphias is a wild zealot. For the same individual to promote both personae would be quite an acting job, although much more possible in the days before mass media and Internet.
 

seankehoe

New Member
Hi James,

Thanks for listening. We have been archiving the shows here, from the beginning. It's just that it usually takes me a few days to get them here. And it's some extra work for me to process the Skype Recorder file. So, copying from the Revolution Radio archive will probably continue to be the routine practice.
Hi James,

Thanks for listening. We have been archiving the shows here, from the beginning. It's just that it usually takes me a few days to get them here. And it's some extra work for me to process the Skype Recorder file. So, copying from the Revolution Radio archive will probably continue to be the routine practice.

The podcast archives are:

http://postflaviana.org/podcasts/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2016-archive/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2015/

I've been in touch with Ralph Ellis on Facebook, and he pointed out some errors in our podcast that he'd like to correct.

1. Ralph doesn't believe that Akhenaten represented himself as Adam, the first man. He thinks that the Genesis story is derived from the Hymn to the Aten, by Akhenaten. But, some redactor mistook the hymn for a creation epic. That's how the chronological transition occurred.

2. Hebrews 7 is trying to justify how Jesus could become high priest when he was not a Levite. It is said that Jesus took an oath. This seems to be describing an application for a real Earthly position, not a mere spiritual position.

3. It was Octavian Augustus, not Mark Antony, who sent a gift of a slave girl to the Parthian court. (This is the slave girl that Ralph believes to be the daughter of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, and who oddly grew up to become Queen Ourania.)

4. Ralph says that Im-Manu-El is not a translation, it is pesher. He suggests that Josephus searched the Torah for a similar name to Manu.
The podcast archives are:

http://postflaviana.org/podcasts/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2016-archive/
http://postflaviana.org/podcasts-2015/

I've been in touch with Ralph Ellis on Facebook, and he pointed out some errors in our podcast that he'd like to correct.

1. Ralph doesn't believe that Akhenaten represented himself as Adam, the first man. He thinks that the Genesis story is derived from the Hymn to the Aten, by Akhenaten. But, some redactor mistook the hymn for a creation epic. That's how the chronological transition occurred.

2. Hebrews 7 is trying to justify how Jesus could become high priest when he was not a Levite. It is said that Jesus took an oath. This seems to be describing an application for a real Earthly position, not a mere spiritual position.

3. It was Octavian Augustus, not Mark Antony, who sent a gift of a slave girl to the Parthian court. (This is the slave girl that Ralph believes to be the daughter of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra, and who oddly grew up to become Queen Ourania.)

4. Ralph says that Im-Manu-El is not a translation, it is pesher. He suggests that Josephus searched the Torah for a similar name to Manu.
I'm glad it was helpful. To further boil down my summary of the Jesus characters, I would say that Jesus son of Gamala seems to be depicted as a very different character from Jesus son of Sapphias, governor of Tiberias. And, all the Jesuses discussed above seem to boil down to these two; I don't see any evidence for more than that. (Jesus ben Ananius, the 'Lunatic Jesus', would be a third, not included in this analysis. There may be more.)

There are many similarities between these two characters. Both of them seem to have brothers: Jesus son of Gamala's brother is Simon, and Jesus son of Sapphias' brother seems to be Justus (though that's not perfectly clear.) Both Jesuses are high priests, and involved with leadership of the rebellion. Both have some similarities to biblical Jesus, as Ralph covers in his books.

But still, for 'son of Gamala' and 'son of Sapphias' to be the same person, there must have been some sort of conspiracy or coverup. Son of Gamala is acting like a steady Herodian, while son of Sapphias is a wild zealot. For the same individual to promote both personae would be quite an acting job, although much more possible in the days before mass media and Internet.
Lot's to talk about here and now that I know that you have read 7 of Ralph's books we will have even more. Really looking forward to it brother. Be Well.
 
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