Religion: the Crossroads of Myth and History?

[Richard Stanley]

A lot of time from the period of the Sumerians and Gutians to the period above. However, there may be elements of religious worship that got transmitted -- how better to remember something than have the youngers memorize what they didn't really understand from their grand parents (Dr. Lundwall's point on oral traditions).

The Genesis Creation and Flood stories seem clearly to have derived from the Mesopotamian / Sumerian stories, no matter what the transmission mechanism, oral or someone reading off cuneiform tablets. If the subtext was lost to the intermediate generations, it seems that today, at least, some are waking up to the fact that some of what was being discussed was cosmic matters such as involving precession and asteroid / comet strikes. The latter appearing to have terminated Sumeria proper and likely the IVC suffered the same fate.

It is my belief that the Nasorean / Nazarenes name derives from the Egyptian 'NZR' for 'prince' and similar relates to 'branch', as in the root and branch of Jesse, etc.. This is why the reference to "the Egyptian" as a rebel leader, who we think is a cryptic allusion to the historical 'Jesus' (Izates - Monobazus the younger), not some literal carpenter from a city that likely didn't exist at the time, it's name invented to misdirect from what NZR implies.

Thus, when one is talking about the graft of the wild and domesticated olive tree in Romans 11, it is really an allusion to the grafting of Romans ('gentile' meaning gentil elites - not non-Jews) onto the pharaonic / Ptolemaic royal lineage. And, it becomes the fulfillment of the prophecy that Esau (Edom) will regain his Abrahamic inheritance from Jacob (Judah and/or Ephraim). The Talmud also identifies the Romans as Edomites, which make the Kittim association more cloudy, but not impossible.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Some of them were Princes of Orange, which Ralph Ellis has apparently attached some importance to.

The Dutch House of Orange, via William, briefly ascended to the English crown, and today it is associated with such as the Bilderbergers association. It's origin in Burgundy is within the confines of ancient Sabaudia (now Burgundy, the Haute Savoy, and the Italian Piedmont) which I believe is one region where the Sabines relocated north to during the breakup of western imperial Rome. Mussolini's Fascists paid homage to this with their creation of the model city of Sabaudia, replete with tiles of Savoy Blue. Sabaudia also is home to a typical Templar round 'baptistry'.

Ellis ties the real Magdalene to Orange in Burgundy if I remember correctly. Besides the fruit, the orange is a nice allusion to ancient sun worship.

 

[Seeker]

From the excerpts I have read, it looks as though Ellis is tying in the Magdalene to the original Orange in Provence (Lower Burgundy), as an ancestress of the Merovingians and also William of Gellone after them, who was the original William of Orange. The earlier Baux family members are supposed to have helped him fight the Saracens, and one of them is believed to have married a daughter of his. William the Silent of Nassau (who married Baux descendants), inherited Orange from his childless cousin, a descendant of the last female Baux of that Orange line, and was the great-grandfather of the English King William of Orange. The Baux are some of the ancestors of, among other present royal families, the Houses of Monaco (the heir to that throne is "Marquis of Baux"), Belgium, Liechtenstein (that eventual heir is also the future Jacobite English pretender), Windsor, the Pretender King of France, the late Queen Juliana of the Netherlands, married to late Bilderberger founder Prince Bernhard, and both the Savoy heir of Italy and the rival Pretender. However, as I mentioned previously, the Baux themselves seem to disappear into the woodwork, perhaps intentionally, and what did the sixteen points around the Star of Bethlehem symbolize for them, it must have been meant something important, was it really the Star of Bethlehem guiding their supposed ancestor Balthazar to Jesus and eventually on to Provence, or something else?
Oh, I just found this, could it be the sixteen pointed "Vergina Sun", representing Helios? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun#Antiquity

 

[Seeker]

OK, I don't have the book, but I have just been reading Google excerpts about Mary Magdalene and the House of Orange, and it looks like the investigations of Ellis unknowingly ties into this seemingly unknown Baux family, with religion, myth, and history. The supposed Baux ancestor who followed the Star of Bethlehem to Jesus, and then to Provence (where Ellis says the Magdalene and her entourage went), the "black" Magi/King Balthazar, must be actually pertaining to the presumed father of Jesus/Izates, KING MonoBAZUS (or Bazeus, a short form of Balthazar, like Baux?), also known as Simon the MAGUS, "BLACK" because his heritage is ultimately Egyptian? In other words, the Baux family descended from the family of Jesus/Izates who came to Provence, his wife Mary Magdalene and their offspring. This would explain why members of the Baux family are supposed to have fought with William of Gellone against the Saracens, and to have married his daughter, they were probably his cousins, and Ellis may be talking about their descendants, who became Princes of Orange for a time. That particular Baux succession became extinct in the male line, and the Nassau dynasty inherited Orange. However, there were other Baux families that survived, some took different surnames, and married into other prominent families, such as the influential Orsini family of Rome, which claimed to descend from the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

 

[Seeker]

In view of the excellent and interesting work that Richard and Tito101 are doing on this new thread, and so as not to cause a distraction from that, since I am basically researching genealogy on my topic, I have decided to continue my research about the Baux family on my dormant "Alternative Genealogy" site. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps Richard or Jerry could move my previous three postings about the Baux origins to that site, if it is feasible.

 

[Tito101]

The Genesis Creation and Flood stories seem clearly to have derived from the Mesopotamian / Sumerian stories, no matter what the transmission mechanism, oral or someone reading off cuneiform tablets. If the subtext was lost to the intermediate generations, it seems that today, at least, some are waking up to the fact that some of what was being discussed was cosmic matters such as involving precession and asteroid / comet strikes. The latter appearing to have terminated Sumeria proper and likely the IVC suffered the same fate.

Not sure about comet strike. At the scale of the universe, that would be ultra-precision.

Getting back to Sumer and Nasorean liturgies (see the Ginza Rabba text), this would be certainly worth investigating. If you dig deep enough early church fathers like Eusebius picked up on text around during their time text on ancient Sumer and saw some interesting parallels. Modern archaeology blows all their speculation apart with the original Sumerian texts, some of which are still being found.

It is my belief that the Nasorean / Nazarenes name derives from the Egyptian 'NZR' for 'prince' and similar relates to 'branch', as in the root and branch of Jesse, etc.. This is why the reference to "the Egyptian" as a rebel leader, who we think is a cryptic allusion to the historical 'Jesus' (Izates - Monobazus the younger), not some literal carpenter from a city that likely didn't exist at the time, it's name invented to misdirect from what NZR implies.

Thus, when one is talking about the graft of the wild and domesticated olive tree in Romans 11, it is really an allusion to the grafting of Romans ('gentile' meaning gentil elites - not non-Jews) onto the pharaonic / Ptolemaic royal lineage. And, it becomes the fulfillment of the prophecy that Esau (Edom) will regain his Abrahamic inheritance from Jacob (Judah and/or Ephraim). The Talmud also identifies the Romans as Edomites, which make the Kittim association more cloudy, but not impossible.

You are referring to the "Egyptian" in Josephus Ant. and Jewish Wars? It's interesting that the reader is somehow supposed to know who this mysterious "Egyptian" is. No explanation is provided, leading to the speculation that the early interpolators excised certain texts or muddied it.

According to the book of Macabees and Josephus the priestly conflict during the Macabees led to the break up of the Onias priestly family. One of them named "Jason" whose original name was "Yeshua"/Joshua negotiated a replica of the new Jerusalem with Ptolemy IV (Philometer) in Egypt in Heliopolis to attract the Jews in Alexandria and other places in messianic reading of Isiah XIX:18-23 in which Egypt is the chosen land. A counter to Jerusalem. Was there a follower originating from here in the name of "Jesus" the ones who occupied Mount Olive and tried to "blow" down (with Trumpets) the walls of Jerusalem during Felix's time? Interestingly in Acts, Paul is said to be a prisoner of Felix and brought before Festus (Felix's replacement) and asked "aren't you that Egyptian dude?" Josephus ends his Jewish War book with end of the temple replica in Egypt.

Are we missing more Egyptian stuff in Josephus during Pilate's watch?

Per above, Roman 11 may be referring to the "New Jerusalem" branch in Heliopolis.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Not sure about comet strike. At the scale of the universe, that would be ultra-precision.

The research of Randall Carlson has revealed a long term periodicity in comet/asteroid strikes, as in .. like a clock. Believers in prior (before the Younger-Dryas Event) human civilizations might be suspicious that some survivors might have understood a need to retain some knowledge of such. Maybe even becoming the original reason for making sure the most 'sacred' things are not written down, at least explicitly?

You are referring to the "Egyptian" in Josephus Ant. and Jewish Wars? It's interesting that the reader is somehow supposed to know who this mysterious "Egyptian" is. No explanation is provided, leading to the speculation that the early interpolators excised certain texts or muddied it.

I believe that any time the Bible makes such a veiled reference it is very important. As is it being silent on Jacob's coloring while his twin brother is clearly identified with 'red'.

Interestingly in Acts, Paul is said to be a prisoner of Felix and brought before Festus (Felix's replacement) and asked "aren't you that Egyptian dude?" Josephus ends his Jewish War book with end of the temple replica in Egypt.

Yes, I think this is a play on the referring to the same individual. Ellis has proposed that Josephus/Paul is closely related to Izates/Monobazus and if so there might be some "inside baseball" humor involved. And then Josephus has a familial reason to save 'Isa' from the fake cruci-fiction.

 

[Seeker]

The Talmud also identifies the Romans as Edomites, which make the Kittim association more cloudy, but not impossible.

From the "Kittim" article in Wikipedia: "The mediaeval rabbinic compilation Yosippon contains a detailed account of the Kittim. As the peoples spread out, it says, the Kittim camped in Campania and built a city called "Posomanga", while descendants of Tubal camped in neighboring Tuscany and built "Sabino", with the Tiber river as their frontier. However, they soon went to war following the rape of the Sabines by the Kittim, who are correlated to the Romans. This war was ended when the Kittim showed the descendants of Tubal their mutual progeny. They then built cities called Porto, Albano, and Aresah. Later, their territory is occupied by Agnias, King of Carthage, but the Kittim end up appointing Zepho, son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau, as their king, with the title Janus Saturnus. The first king of Rome, Romulus, is made in this account to be a distant successor of this line. A shorter, more garbled version of this story is also found in the later Sefer haYashar."

 

[Seeker]

Tubal, the supposed ancestor ot the Sabines, was a son of Japheth, and according to the Wikipedia article on "Tubal":
"Modern scholarship has identified the biblical Tubal with Tabal, an Anatolian state and region mentioned in Assyrian sources.[1][2]
Tabal was a post-Hittite Luwian state in Asia Minor in the 1st millennium BC." Kittim was supposed to be the son of Javan, and thus the grandson of Japheth. According to Nicholas de Vere, Japheth was the son of Tubalcain, not Noah, and so descended in the male line from Cain, who was not the son of Adam, but of the Anunnaki Enki (descended from proto-Scythians) mating with Eve. So Cain had the more exalted bloodline, compared to his younger half-brother Seth, the offspring of Adam and Eve, and ancestor of the Hebrews. Also going by the de Vere genealogical tables, Ham, the ancestor of the Egyptian Pharaohs, was also the son of Tubalcain, with the same superior ancestry as his brother Japheth. Tubalcain is also thought to have been closely connected with ancient Freemasonry. Putting all of his together in a (hopefully) coherent form, this means that Nicholas de Vere would have traced his de Vere ancestry, in the male line, from the Roman Emperor Claudius (his Claudian family intermarried with the Julian Roman Emperor dynasty), descended in the male line from the Sabines, in the male line from Tubal, Japheth, Tubalcain, Cain, and the Anunnaki Enki, of proto-Scythian ancestry (the real players).

 

[Charles Watkins]

the male line from Tubal, Japheth, Tubalcain, Cain, and the Anunnaki Enki, of proto-Scythian ancestry (the real players).

Whoa! How does Anunnaki Enki come into this?

 

[Seeker]

Whoa! How does Anunnaki Enki come into this?

"According to Nicholas de Vere, Japheth was the son of Tubalcain, not Noah, and so descended in the male line from Cain, who was not the son of Adam, but of the Anunnaki Enki (descended from proto-Scythians) mating with Eve. So Cain had the more exalted bloodline, compared to his younger half-brother Seth, the offspring of Adam and Eve, and ancestor of the Hebrews."

Nicholas de Vere, in his de Vere pedigree, has Enki "engineering" the birth of Cain using Eve.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Charles, as discussed elsewhere De Vere asserts, in his Dragon's Legacy aka From Transylvania to Tunbridge Wells, that the De Vere clan of special red-headed, green-eyed shamen/kings trace a literal and figurative arc of historical leadership through history. This appears roughly parallel as Geoffrey Ashe did in his Dawn Before the Dawn sans the focus on the red-heads.

The Genesis story of the sons of God breeding with the daughters of men is an interesting contextual case. Is it discussing space aliens breeding with apes, as some propose? Or, is it alluding to such as the nefilim 'giants' as being the sons of aristocratic men, whose overwhelming lusts drove them to improperly dally with 'common' women below their exalted status? As such, De Vere's works are replete with such cultural allusions being employed thoughout various places and times, that do seem to connect via such particularly exclusive red-heads.

 

[Charles Watkins]

Richard, as much as I dislike the idea of alien/human hybrids, I do see something in a takeover by members of an advanced civilization, perhaps with some significant genetic differences. But as to an individual Enki at the top of this singular bloodline, I have reservations. I tend to see ancient gods as avatars of natural forces and more recently as venerated tribal leaders. When you throw Adam and Eve into the story, you lose me.

But lately, I've been intrigued by discoveries regarding the Denisovans, who may the progenitors of these red-headed giants. They had a shamanistic mindset and possibly spoke the 'language of birds'. Their genetics are spread all over the world with a peculiar concentration in Oceana.

And thanks for the pointer to Dawn Before Dawn. That's new to me.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Richard, as much as I dislike the idea of alien/human hybrids, I do see something in a takeover by members of an advanced civilization, perhaps with some significant genetic differences.

Let's don't tell Claude Badley, because he is certain that there can only be idiosyncratic individual differences arising from the quantum genetic flux, which fuels his novel, Kinder, Gentler Fascism (except for when it comes brutal time for succession to the see of power that is).

As I've been discussing with Seeker variously, I am not asserting that Adam and Eve, especially as presented in the canon, are necessarily historical in the common sense. And, for another thing, Eve, as First Woman likely didn't have to procreate with her sons, though such incest was the pharaonic practice. My wider position on all of this is that Biblical characters, as elsewhere, are admixtures of reality and myth.

Yes, the mythic gods can have their origin in both Earthly and Cosmic phenomenon, but for some there is suggestive evidence that human narrative crept in, and in any case the less enlightened, at least, coming to take all of them as literal gods - as happens with Xianity.

Via name associations (using the lesser known names), Ellis has matched, in sequence, the names of the patriarchs (starting with David and Solomon) to first Egyptian kings and then earlier to Mesopotamian kings.

One possible manner to view this is that the proposed 'Biblical' start dates of such as Judaism and some Xians is merely the start date for their bird spoken (or is that bee-spoken?), underlying 'human' narratives, not the literal Creation of the Universe and Earth - cribbed from earlier sources.

Oceana? Have you seen the red-headed, pale faces of New Zealand, there prior to the Maori's? When one combines such with Diffusionism and Catastrophism (ala Carlson et al) then one can see the path(s) to that Plato seems to be correct (on the A word), including his timing. Claude Badley, that staunch advocate for Uniformitarianism (Plate Tectonics as Science's Sola Scriptura) is agin Einstein? Say whaaat?

 

[Seeker]

In fairness to the late Nicholas de Vere and his "pedigree", I believe he did mention that he considered the Anunnaki as human, not alien invaders from space.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Yes, not everyone is in the Sitchin camp. But in any case, Enki and Enlil are usually regarded as gods. We do know that these were of a different ethnicity than their common people, as the latter were differentially referred to as the 'dark heads', and the gods and goddesses were depicted as much larger in physical stature (but this could just be for some messaging effect or such) than 'humans'. Or, were these the giants of the Bible?

In any case, if we are only talking about hair and you don't have a 'dark head', your only other options are blonde, brown, or ... red.

 

[Tito101]

From the "Kittim" article in Wikipedia: "The mediaeval rabbinic compilation Yosippon contains a detailed account of the Kittim. As the peoples spread out, it says, the Kittim camped in Campania and built a city called "Posomanga", while descendants of Tubal camped in neighboring Tuscany and built "Sabino", with the Tiber river as their frontier. However, they soon went to war following the rape of the Sabines by the Kittim, who are correlated to the Romans. This war was ended when the Kittim showed the descendants of Tubal their mutual progeny. They then built cities called Porto, Albano, and Aresah. Later, their territory is occupied by Agnias, King of Carthage, but the Kittim end up appointing Zepho, son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau, as their king, with the title Janus Saturnus. The first king of Rome, Romulus, is made in this account to be a distant successor of this line. A shorter, more garbled version of this story is also found in the later Sefer haYashar."

The Josippon version of Josephus has a long history starting from Yemenite Jews through Christianized Jews in South Italy. No surprise the Itlian Jews would project onto Italian history. I would stick with Levi for this stuff for starters.

 

[Tito101]

The research of Randall Carlson has revealed a long term periodicity in comet/asteroid strikes, as in .. like a clock. Believers in prior (before the Younger-Dryas Event) human civilizations might be suspicious that some survivors might have understood a need to retain some knowledge of such. Maybe even becoming the original reason for making sure the most 'sacred' things are not written down, at least explicitly?


I believe that any time the Bible makes such a veiled reference it is very important. As is it being silent on Jacob's coloring while his twin brother is clearly identified with 'red'.


Yes, I think this is a play on the referring to the same individual. Ellis has proposed that Josephus/Paul is closely related to Izates/Monobazus and if so there might be some "inside baseball" humor involved. And then Josephus has a familial reason to save 'Isa' from the fake cruci-fiction.

What I see is parts of the original Josephus where explanations related to the "Egyptian" connection may have been excised, perhaps even by Flavianists due to their enthusiasm for Serapis (recall that Vespasian performed miracles on Serapist followers and became followers of Egyptian religion(s)). I suspect that Josephus casts them as "wicked" priests seeking to influence Flavians.

 

[Richard Stanley]

You mean the theory where parts of the NT were cribbed and redacted from Josephus?

This reminds me of the controversial claim that Hadrian said that the 'Christian' leaders of his day were all priests of Serapis. But it makes sense to me, that is, if any proto-Christian identified themselves as such at this date (regarding the problem of messianic Hellenized Jews using the term 'Christiani' in their context and not a 'Christian' one).

 

[Richard E]

Origins, beginnings, myth, l iore, etc..., still looks to me that such a short telling of history in Genesis until Abraham is on the scene is so brief as to almost be pointless apart from the Hebrew text finding some remarkable alignment to what we now know in science. Abraham and following tells of defining human behavior to have the option to be blessed or not. Somewhat a thumbnail sketch of how people should be taught to live, and that there are at least natural cause and effect for what we choose to do. With many ancient beliefs the gods were not concerned with human behavior as was the records via Moses and following. You all have some very interesting thoughts, and I wish you well. As for ancient lore and giants, dragons, etc, you might find the guy on Youtube called "Mud Fossil University" interesting. He shows giant and regular human parts that have been mineralized and then shows they still contain blood and flesh - reported to even have DNA test results to show the giants were humans.

Thanks for all the discussions - very interesting things!