Religion: the Crossroads of Myth and History?

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
I've only watched the first half, so far, of this 2.5 hour interview with Dr. John Knight Lundwall regarding the interplay of myth and history in forming what we understand today by our religions. Very fascinating and seems to fit well into the Postflavian worldview. Interesting comments on Richard Carrier and euhemerism.

 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Blurb from Lundwall's book "Mythos and Cosmos":

A bold new approach to myth studies, Mythos and Cosmos reexamines ancient myth through the template of oral thinking and oral cosmology. Contradicting decades of assumptions about the purpose and function of ancient mythology, Lundwall defines myth as "the oral imprinting press of pre-literate peoples" and shows that myth belongs to a complex and rational method of information transmission amongst oral peoples. Further, ancient mythology belonged to a cultus which incorporated ritual and symbol in a cosmological system which sought to found the sacred world. Where this work really shines is in its discussion of how ancient oral peoples saw their universe. Oral cosmology is far more complex than the simple "flat-earth" models discussed in current textbooks. Such myth cycles as the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Labors of Heracles, and the story of the Great Flood are seen completely differently when viewed from within ancient cosmological thought. Many strange features of ancient culture, such as the dancing chorus in Greek theater, are explained in rational and revolutionary ways. The pyramids, ziggurats, and megalithic-henges are also seen in a new light. While academic, the book is written for a general audience. It is a fascinating exploration in ancient history, comparative myth and religious studies, and the ancient mind.
And, he has a very impressive-looking blog page, with a fascinating gallery of photos of ancient sites all over the world.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
FWIW, the mention of Gilgamesh, by Lundwall, as the prototype for Heracles/Hercules reminded me of the following, a claim just before 18 minutes, that the tomb of Gilgamesh was found in 2003 by US troops, then covered up. Same for Sumerian Queen Puabi by Leonard Woolley a century before:

(Wallis is a Sitchinite, and a former priest (Episcopalian?))
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
I think the following discussion about the collapse of the LBA and Troy is very interesting on its own, but also relates well to this thread. Dr. Zangger considers the Trojan War, as presented in the Homeric works, has been embellished via condensing the more widespread Sea Peoples actions over the prior decade or so into the narrative of the Trojan War and its locality. As I had stated in my blog article about the Trojan War, it seems pretty doubtful that the siege of Troy could possibly go on for a decade.

Thus, we have another historical episode that is taken through an effective redaction by one individual, or a 'team' into what essentially became the 'religion' for the Greco-Roman world until the onset of Christianity.

 

Tito101

New Member
I've only watched the first half, so far, of this 2.5 hour interview with Dr. John Knight Lundwall regarding the interplay of myth and history in forming what we understand today by our religions. Very fascinating and seems to fit well into the Postflavian worldview. Interesting comments on Richard Carrier and euhemerism.

This was an excellent video presentation by Dr. Lundwall. From about 39-45min he talks about "taking on the identity" practiced in myths and religion; Baptism as example. He describes the "Chrest" origin through the hieroglyphic/coptic term "Krsp" which meant "corpse" from which the word "core" derives.

This reminds of John the Baptist in NT who had an initiation practice and one could surmise (and not emphasized in the NT synoptics) that he invoked "Jesus" as the "take on identity" of his baptism based on work of past prophets (you do such and such) to get to the "Jesus" state i.e., one could come in the name of the Lord and be called "Jesus."
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
the tomb of Gilgamesh was found in 2003 by US troops, then covered up.
This is from memory, and I may have some of it mixed up, but I seem to recall reading that the real reason Skull and Bonesman Bush #2 invaded Iraq was to find a space portal for the second coming of the Anunnaki, or whatever dark powers, that was supposed to be there for the Babylonian Brotherhood to utilize, and this may have been the reason for the "cover-up" of the Gilgamesh tomb. Gilgamesh has been connected to Sargon, who in turn has been connected to Nimrod, the supposed founder of the Babylonian Brotherhood, which today would certainly include the Skull and Bones secret fraternal society at elite Yale University.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
This reminds of John the Baptist in NT who had an initiation practice and one could surmise (and not emphasized in the NT synoptics) that he invoked "Jesus" as the "take on identity" of his baptism based on work of past prophets (you do such and such) to get to the "Jesus" state i.e., one could come in the name of the Lord and be called "Jesus."
Yes, there are some Xian traditions where the Christian is to ever aspire to become more Christ-like. This is my general understanding of the spiritual mystery cults as I understand it. On the other hand, there is the tradition that all one has to do is to accept Christ as one's savior and you have a short cut to reunion with God, so you can play eternal ping-pong with God and your loved ones.

This is from memory, and I may have some of it mixed up, but I seem to recall reading that the real reason Skull and Bonesman Bush #2 invaded Iraq was to find a space portal for the second coming of the Anunnaki, or whatever dark powers, that was supposed to be there for the Babylonian Brotherhood to utilize, and this may have been the reason for the "cover-up" of the Gilgamesh tomb. Gilgamesh has been connected to Sargon, who in turn has been connected to Nimrod, the supposed founder of the Babylonian Brotherhood, which today would certainly include the Skull and Bones secret fraternal society at elite Yale University.
I had not heard these specifics, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Similarly, I think that the role of ISIS has been the same. Recover certain things and destroy everything else.
 
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Tito101

New Member
Yes, there are some Xian traditions where the Christian is to ever aspire to become more Christ-like. This is my general understanding of the spiritual mystery cults as I understand it. On the other hand, there is the tradition that all one has to do is to accept Christ as one's savior and you have a sort cut to reunion with God, so you can play eternal ping-pong with God and your loved ones.
Also Jewish tradition at least going back to Persian exile period (see Zechariah) where "Joshua" ("Jesus") appears in Zechariah's dream for doing the sorts of things that John the Baptist was advocating in the NT. Paul could get to Jesus without ever having met him. In Acts 5v33-, the High Priests beat up the apostles and ask them never to use the "name of Jesus" again. Fishy. Well the Zechariah addressed catching fishes of men too.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
It is my position (not unique) that the literary [sic] process of forming the new Christian (eventual state) religion was pretty well understood, using the cut and paste copying techniques that Lundwall discusses. It seems fairly well accepted that the canonic gospels were targeted to respective demographics, and probably the extra-canonic works were for the same purpose, gradually herding the sheep, or fish, into one larger pen or net. Once accomplished, the field of works are winnowed down to the desired four, and the Pauline corpus. And the end result is an amazing amalgam of Jewish gloss hiding Pythagorean, Platonic, and Jewish esotericism.

In this last sense, the authors did reveal some of the 'divine' -- albeit in encrypted form, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I like Lundwall's analysis of interpretation as regards the differences of the Catholic Church and the fundamentalist literalism of early Protestantism, which later split into fundamentalism versus the 'liberal' metaphorical approach. The problem for me with the Catholic system then, is to a great extent in the bloody and exclusive manner which they controlled access to the 'mysteries'. If the canon contained the answers then they were essentially running a 'prison planet'. The newly literate, with access to the newly printed Bible were bound to avidly take the fundamentalist approach.

Good fodder for making determined conquerors of the New World?
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
If the canon contained the answers then they were essentially running a 'prison planet'. The newly literate, with access to the newly printed Bible were bound to avidly take the fundamentalist approach.
Good fodder for making determined conquerors of the New World?
Just as "St. Peter" (Roman Piso?) told them:
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light:" (1 Peter 2:9).
 

Tito101

New Member
It is my position (not unique) that the literary [sic] process of forming the new Christian (eventual state) religion was pretty well understood, using the cut and paste copying techniques that Lundwall discusses. It seems fairly well accepted that the canonic gospels were targeted to respective demographics, and probably the extra-canonic works were for the same purpose, gradually herding the sheep, or fish, into one larger pen or net. Once accomplished, the field of works are winnowed down to the desired four, and the Pauline corpus. And the end result is an amazing amalgam of Jewish gloss hiding Pythagorean, Platonic, and Jewish esotericism.

In this last sense, the authors did reveal some of the 'divine' -- albeit in encrypted form, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I like Lundwall's analysis of interpretation as regards the differences of the Catholic Church and the fundamentalist literalism of early Protestantism, which later split into fundamentalism versus the 'liberal' metaphorical approach. The problem for me with the Catholic system then, is to a great extent in the bloody and exclusive manner which they controlled access to the 'mysteries'. If the canon contained the answers then they were essentially running a 'prison planet'. The newly literate, with access to the newly printed Bible were bound to avidly take the fundamentalist approach.

Good fodder for making determined conquerors of the New World?
Depends on which way you want to run the clock. Forward and take it from present tense forward, or take the clock backward. Or to paraphrase, what comes out defileth; do we want to see the beautifully laid out banquet prior to consumption or the shit that come out-eth after?

The "church" may think that there's a fixed end state "Christianity" but that was never the case and never will be as you attest.

For inspiration etc. I prefer moving the clock backward to the parts where we might and just might be able to glean what has come down to us through various sources, including the synoptic NT (hint: because the synoptic John contains more about John the Baptist than the others I think that's closest to "Jesus of Nazareth" than the other ones).
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
the synoptic John contains more about John the Baptist than the others I think that's closest to "Jesus of Nazareth" than the other ones).
Also the most Gnostic gospel for a look at the "backward" clock in time, and, if the same person/family/syndicate did indeed compose an originally Gnostic "Revelation", we would have the "forward" clock, or, as the author put it, "the Alpha and the Omega".
 

Tito101

New Member
Also the most Gnostic gospel for a look at the "backward" clock in time, and, if the same person/family/syndicate did indeed compose an originally Gnostic "Revelation", we would have the "forward" clock, or, as the author put it, "the Alpha and the Omega".
Or going by same author assumption "Revelations" may have been nothing more than part of the initiation rituals of the Nasoreans (the textual limitation of translating rituals in to readable words and translations was well spoken of by Dr. Lundwall).

The clock didn't move much, or not all actually.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
The "church" may think that there's a fixed end state "Christianity" but that was never the case and never will be as you attest.
I would say that this depends upon what organ or organs of the "church" you are talking about. The brain or the colon?
For inspiration etc. I prefer moving the clock backward to the parts where we might and just might be able to glean what has come down to us through various sources, including the synoptic NT (hint: because the synoptic John contains more about John the Baptist than the others I think that's closest to "Jesus of Nazareth" than the other ones).
Or going by same author assumption "Revelations" may have been nothing more than part of the initiation rituals of the Nasoreans (the textual limitation of translating rituals in to readable words and translations was well spoken of by Dr. Lundwall).

The clock didn't move much, or not all actually.
There is considerable (and good IMHO) speculation that the Nasoreans were closely connected to the Qumran community, at least, and I'm not aware that the DSS manuscripts had the same scope in their eschatology, or at least their written eschatology. Such as Robert Feather makes a strong case that the DSS texts link back strongly to Amarna, of which Egyptians were avid star watchers, e.g. the Dendera Zodiac.

The 18th and 19th Dynasty Egyptians had unusually close relations to the Mittani, of which the region of Abraham's Harran and Urfa are noted for star watching Sabeans. And, as I have discussed on other threads, the very sophisticated Antikythera Mechanism allows its user(s) to visualize the unique [sic] 9 month dynamics of Revelation 12 on 9/23/2017, where the new savior is born from the belly of the heavenly virgin, the Sun and Moon closely attending the Nativity, as they are similarly depicted for the Cruci-fiction.

In which case, I would see no reason that such might be part of some Nasorean ritual, maybe even a Mithraic ritual as well, of which I'm fairly certian the brains if not the bowels of the Church are aware.
 

Tito101

New Member
I would say that this depends upon what organ or organs of the "church" you are talking about. The brain or the colon?


There is considerable (and good IMHO) speculation that the Nasoreans were closely connected to the Qumran community, at least, and I'm not aware that the DSS manuscripts had the same scope in their eschatology, or at least their written eschatology. Such as Robert Feather makes a strong case that the DSS texts link back strongly to Amarna, of which Egyptians were avid star watchers, e.g. the Dendera Zodiac.

The 18th and 19th Dynasty Egyptians had unusually close relations to the Mittani, of which the region of Abraham's Harran and Urfa are noted for star watching Sabeans. And, as I have discussed on other threads, the very sophisticated Antikythera Mechanism allows its user(s) to visualize the unique [sic] 9 month dynamics of Revelation 12 on 9/23/2017, where the new savior is born from the belly of the heavenly virgin, the Sun and Moon closely attending the Nativity, as they are similarly depicted for the Cruci-fiction.

In which case, I would see no reason that such might be part of some Nasorean ritual, maybe even a Mithraic ritual as well, of which I'm fairly certian the brains if not the bowels of the Church are aware.

The question in my mind (and it seems like yours too) is what "template" the Nasorean used. I've read of keywords like "Kittim" with experts speculating who they are. In my opinion the clock has to be pushed back way back and the reference is "Guti" from ancient Sumeria who were an outcast and nomadic type warriors who invaded and decimated ancient Sumer. The Sumerians seem to have been saved by the revolt of a fisherman (or a fisherman's omen more like( who dedicated his fish to the god "Marduk" (Manda for the Nasoreans?) and the Guti instead used sacriledged the fish.

Turn the clock back to the synoptic gospel period, and surprise the Jews called the Samarians Cutheans as foreign invaders.

All the reason to go about learning Sumerian and reading their ancient texts.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Yes, I suspect that learning Sumerian could be very fruitful.

I have suspected the Kassite leaders as being players for some time, and perhaps the Gutians were their forerunners? The Kassite name sounds much like the Hindu warrior class of the Kshatriya, but maybe this is coincidence, but there is also a behavioral parallel of 'foreign' elite dominance, which if such peoples, including the Gutians connect back to peoples like the Tocharians. The Mittani and Medes have similar characteristics, and operate in the geographic areas of interest.

They gained control of Babylonia after the Hittite sack of the city in 1595 BC (i.e. 1531 BC per the short chronology), and established a dynasty based first in Babylon and later in Dur-Kurigalzu.[2][3] The Kassites were members of a small military aristocracy but were efficient rulers and not locally unpopular,[4] and their 500-year reign laid an essential groundwork for the development of subsequent Babylonian culture.[3] The chariot and the horse, which the Kassites worshipped, first came into use in Babylonia at this time.[4]
The Kassite language has not been classified.[3] What is known is that their language was not related to either the Indo-European language group, nor to Semitic or other Afro-Asiatic languages, and is most likely to have been a language isolate although some linguists have proposed a link to the Hurro-Urartian languages of Asia Minor.[5] However, the arrival of the Kassites has been connected to the contemporary migrations of Indo-European peoples.[6][7][8][9] Several Kassite leaders and deities bore Indo-European names,[6][7][8][10][11] and it is possible that they were dominated by an Indo-European elite similar to the Mitanni, who ruled over the Hurro-Urartian-speaking Hurrians of Asia Minor.[6][7][8]

6. Myres, Sir John Lynton (1930). Who Were the Greeks?. University of California Press. p. 102. Among the names of Kassite kings are some which appear to contain Indo-European elements, as though they belonged to families which had once used Indo-European speech, but had lost it as their official language, through assimilation to the people of Kassite speech whose movements they were now directing. Some Kassite deities too seem to have Indo-European names.

It was the Hyksos who brought the chariot to Egypt, and I suspect that the ruling class and the Hyksos peoples were not of the same stock as well.

If I remember my Herodotus correctly, it was the Medes who instigated Cyrus to launch the Persian empire. And the Medes (or the Magi?) were described as an exclusive clan a shamen, ala what Nicolas De Vere detailed for his clan.

Thus one has all the requisite type of people present in the right time frames to fabricate the Abrahamic religions and employing the myths of the day.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
the Medes (or the Magi?) were described as an exclusive clan a shamen, ala what Nicolas De Vere detailed for his clan.
The House of Baux, in Provence, claimed Balthazar, one of the Magi, as their founding ancestor, and used a star (from Bethlehem) of sixteen points on their coat of arms, seals, castle walls, etc. Some of them were Princes of Orange, which Ralph Ellis has apparently attached some importance to. Certain lines of their descendants appear to be very good at changing their surnames to something completely different, which has resulted in obvious confusion and skepticism from mainstream historians attempting to trace those branches, causing them to basically consider their alleged family connections a fairy tale.
 
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Tito101

New Member
Yes, I suspect that learning Sumerian could be very fruitful.

I have suspected the Kassite leaders as being players for some time, and perhaps the Gutians were their forerunners? The Kassite name sounds much like the Hindu warrior class of the Kshatriya, but maybe this is coincidence, but there is also a behavioral parallel of 'foreign' elite dominance, which if such peoples, including the Gutians connect back to peoples like the Tocharians. The Mittani and Medes have similar characteristics, and operate in the geographic areas of interest.

They gained control of Babylonia after the Hittite sack of the city in 1595 BC (i.e. 1531 BC per the short chronology), and established a dynasty based first in Babylon and later in Dur-Kurigalzu.[2][3] The Kassites were members of a small military aristocracy but were efficient rulers and not locally unpopular,[4] and their 500-year reign laid an essential groundwork for the development of subsequent Babylonian culture.[3] The chariot and the horse, which the Kassites worshipped, first came into use in Babylonia at this time.[4]
The Kassite language has not been classified.[3] What is known is that their language was not related to either the Indo-European language group, nor to Semitic or other Afro-Asiatic languages, and is most likely to have been a language isolate although some linguists have proposed a link to the Hurro-Urartian languages of Asia Minor.[5] However, the arrival of the Kassites has been connected to the contemporary migrations of Indo-European peoples.[6][7][8][9] Several Kassite leaders and deities bore Indo-European names,[6][7][8][10][11] and it is possible that they were dominated by an Indo-European elite similar to the Mitanni, who ruled over the Hurro-Urartian-speaking Hurrians of Asia Minor.[6][7][8]

6. Myres, Sir John Lynton (1930). Who Were the Greeks?. University of California Press. p. 102. Among the names of Kassite kings are some which appear to contain Indo-European elements, as though they belonged to families which had once used Indo-European speech, but had lost it as their official language, through assimilation to the people of Kassite speech whose movements they were now directing. Some Kassite deities too seem to have Indo-European names.

It was the Hyksos who brought the chariot to Egypt, and I suspect that the ruling class and the Hyksos peoples were not of the same stock as well.

If I remember my Herodotus correctly, it was the Medes who instigated Cyrus to launch the Persian empire. And the Medes (or the Magi?) were described as an exclusive clan a shamen, ala what Nicolas De Vere detailed for his clan.

Thus one has all the requisite type of people present in the right time frames to fabricate the Abrahamic religions and employing the myths of the day.
A lot of time from the period of the Sumerians and Gutians to the period above. However, there may be elements of religious worship that got transmitted -- how better to remember something than have the youngers memorize what they didn't really understand from their grand parents (Dr. Lundwall's point on oral traditions). The Egyptians referred to the Mittani as "Nhrn" (Nasarins?) and there may be an origin connection to the Nasoreans we are talking about. Also the Nasoreans refer to "Ziwa" in their liturgies which may be "Isuwa" (see wiki description).

Also note that mountain cultures didn't develop wheel based cultures like the flat landers did. A case in point is many of the South and North American cultures prior to white man.
 
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