Regime change needed in Russia? A debate

[Jerry Russell]

The wording of my question wasn't meant to imply that all pro-EU Ukrainians are Nazis, but your reply seems to go along with this approach. Is this what you meant?

I understand that not all pro-EU Ukrainians are Nazis. But, the pro-EU Nazis have taken control of the Ukrainian government, so they're the ones that signed the agreement with the EU.

Rather than dilly-dallying around on Facebook and such, Jerry is really supposed to be helping me to verify some relatively recent scientific research

Smiting the lazy worker, eh? First Marcilla, then Suchender (the true meaning of his post now emerges, he's trying to encourage us to work harder) and now you? I will do the research and there will be more articles, I swear it... maybe the day after tomorrow...

 

[Suchender]

Suchender's logo is a 1931 Soviet Union poster. The legend means "Beat fake strike workers", or maybe "we smite the lazy workers"

The translation does not reflect the real meaning > "lying workers" (lying about the amount of production = faking production, fake producers).
The artist produces a great graphic.
Too bad i'm not good at Photoshoping. If I were, I would change it to mean just Liars.

 

[Suchender]

"..... the real agenda of ....the Nazis...."

I guess you mean Hitler only ?
But if you mean the top brass, then look into Otto Strasser. He lost his position to Hitler....

As for the ordinary National Socialists, they wanted the same thing everyone would like to have : be in a position to determine their own future and not to be "exploited" (robbed by the Money Powers of which existence the masses don't know).
Too bad the people are statists and don't realise that they will never arrive at the desired state in this statist "game".

 

[Jerry Russell]

"..... the real agenda of ....the Nazis...." I guess you mean Hitler only ?

Richard is working on a theory that the Nazis as well as the entire Zionist elite, are all convinced that the apocalypse is coming soon. Thus, their real agenda is to dig as many deep tunnels as possible, to survive the upcoming apocalypse.

All that Nazi stuff about hating and killing Jews, as horrible (or as real, or as fake) as it may have been, was just a smokescreen. When the time comes, the Hofjuden will take their places alongside the nobility and business elites, in their underground tunnels.

Digression continued at:

https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/eschatology-of-the-third-and-fourth-reichs.2422/

 

[Richard Stanley]

Former French President, Francois Hollande, claims in a new book that Vladimir Putin made a verbal blunder, while in a fit of anger, in effect admitting that Russian troops were fighting in the Ukrainian Donbass, posing as Ukrainian separatists. Not stated in the article or the UAWire piece, at least, is any mention of such as a corraborating recording or transcript, the latter being a common diplomatic norm (except for Donald Trumputin that is).

...
But in a heated argument with Poroshenko at the 2015 talks to form the Minsk Agreement, a document that sought to end the conflict but that Russia has yet to implement, Putin apparently became so angry he tripped up.

"Poroshenko and Putin constantly raised their voices with each other. The Russian president was so worked up, that he started threatening to decisively crush his counterpart's forces," an excerpt from Hollande's 2018 book, "The Lessons of Power," says, according to a translation by UAWire.org, which writes about Russia and Ukraine.

"This showed that there are Russian troops in eastern Ukraine. Putin suddenly realized, and got a grip on himself," Hollande wrote, according to UAWire.org. ...
https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-blundered-shoutingat-ukraines-poroshenko-france-hollande-book-2018-9​

And here is a denial by Kremlin spox, Dmitry Peskov: http://uawire.org/peskov-calls-hollande-s-memoirs-on-putin-threatening-poroshenko-incorrect-information-disclosure

 

[Richard Stanley]

Just like President Trump is a 'real' Reality TV star, so is President Putin now. Only difference is -- Putin can even make otherwise naughty Russian bears behave.

Russian state TV has dedicated an entire show to documenting Vladimir Putin's activities and praising him.

In the first episode of Rossiya-1's new show, which aired on Monday, the Russian president can be seen hiking around the Russian countryside, while his employees compliment almost everything about him, from his physical fitness to his "very empathetic" personality.

The show — named "Moscow. Kremlin. Putin." — aired during prime time on Sunday evening, with the first episode lasting an hour long, The Guardian reported.

Clips from the episode showed wholesome activities such as Putin hiking with his ministers and picking berries in the Russian hills. Russian defense minister Sergei Shoigu can be seen complaining about his legs hurting several days after his hike, in what is most likely praise for Putin's fitness levels.

Putin on holiday in Siberia in August. Alexei Nikolsky/AP

The episode also showed footage of Putin's recent hiking holiday in Siberia. Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin's spokesman and a guest on the show, said jokingly according to The Guardian: "This is wild nature, there are bears there. Bodyguards are armed in an appropriate manner, just in case. Although if a bear sees Putin - they aren't idiots - they will behave themselves properly."

Rossiya-1 also showed Putin meeting with schoolchildren and musicians. Peskov said: "Putin doesn't only love children, he loves people in general." ...
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-tv-launches-new-show-dedicated-to-praising-putin-2018-9​

 

[Richard Stanley]

Putin's Rovian Brain? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_Surkov

...
One of Surkov’s many nicknames is the “political technologist of all of Rus.” Political technologists are the new Russian name for a very old profession: viziers, gray cardinals, wizards of Oz. They first emerged in the mid-1990s, knocking on the gates of power like pied pipers, bowing low and offering their services to explain the world and whispering that they could reinvent it. They inherited a very Soviet tradition of top-down governance and tsarist practices of co-opting anti-state actors (anarchists in the 19th century, neo-Nazis and religious fanatics now), all fused with the latest thinking in television, advertising, and black PR. Their first clients were actually Russian modernizers: In 1996 the political technologists, coordinated by Boris Berezovsky, the oligarch nicknamed the “Godfather of the Kremlin” and the man who first understood the power of television in Russia, managed to win then-President Boris Yeltsin a seemingly lost election by persuading the nation that he was the only man who could save it from a return to revanchist Communism and new fascism. They produced TV scare-stories of looming pogroms and conjured fake Far Right parties, insinuating that the other candidate was a Stalinist (he was actually more a socialist democrat), to help create the mirage of a looming “red-brown” menace.

In the 21st century, the techniques of the political technologists have become centralized and systematized, coordinated out of the office of the presidential administration, where Surkov would sit behind a desk with phones bearing the names of all the “independent” party leaders, calling and directing them at any moment, day or night. The brilliance of this new type of authoritarianism is that instead of simply oppressing opposition, as had been the case with 20th-century strains, it climbs inside all ideologies and movements, exploiting and rendering them absurd. One moment Surkov would fund civic forums and human-rights NGOs, the next he would quietly support nationalist movements that accuse the NGOs of being tools of the West. With a flourish he sponsored lavish arts festivals for the most provocative modern artists in Moscow, then supported Orthodox fundamentalists, dressed all in black and carrying crosses, who in turn attacked the modern-art exhibitions. The Kremlin’s idea is to own all forms of political discourse, to not let any independent movements develop outside of its walls. Its Moscow can feel like an oligarchy in the morning and a democracy in the afternoon, a monarchy for dinner and a totalitarian state by bedtime. ...
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/hidden-author-putinism-russia-vladislav-surkov/382489/​

 

[Richard Stanley]

The following video is Vladimir Pozner's talk at Yale University on 9/27/18 regarding his belief that the so-called Wolfowitz Doctrine is responsible for making Putin what he is today in regards to his stance against the USA and the West. This seems very plausible, but it could also be a convenient cover as well.

 

[Richard Stanley]

The following video is Vladimir Pozner's talk at Yale University on 9/27/18 regarding his belief that the so-called Wolfowitz Doctrine is responsible for making Putin what he is today in regards to his stance against the USA and the West. This seems very plausible, but it could also be a convenient cover as well.

Somewhat similar to Pozner's argument that the Wolfowitz Doctrine is responsible for making Putin, Princeton professor, Stephen Kotner, discusses in the lecture video below that the USA created the environment for what we see today. Kotner discusses an interesting parallel to the Versailles Treaty, which becomes a propaganda foil as the Nazis had used. But Kotner is more focused on that such as the banking arrangements for taking Russian dark money and such as the American technology situation with companies like Facebook have created th current Russian environment.

As such, Kotner posits that we should be using our leverage over the Russian dark money, because its mostly stashed in the USA (because of political stability) as the cudgel to influence Russia. This makes good sense to me, with the exception that I don't think we'll ever see such change. It was one thing to modify banking laws that allowed Russians and others to directly dump massive amounts of looted funds into Western banks, but it is another thing to stop the use of shell corporations to launder these funds. The problem with doing so is not that it could be accomplished, but that there is simply too much Western dark money squirreled away in the same fashion.

It is a little funny to watch Kotner make comments about placing more controls on money flows to an audience at the libertarian Cato Institute. The Cato Institute intro by Boaz was the typical binary approach in contrasting such as Von Mises against Communists. There is no grey in between with such.

 

[Richard Stanley]

The following excerpted article is interesting to me in how it juxtaposes Putin's contemporary focus on Traditionalism and Conservatism, with the historical background of the totalitarian / authoritarian nature of Soviet Communism (differentiated from democratic Socialism). This requires one to constantly recontextualize 'Conservatism' as meaning the kontrol necessary to provide absolute political stability -- depending upon which lens is being applied. In this contemporary particularist Russian mindset, near identical to 20th and 21th century Fascism, what matters is the authoritarian nature. And thus the Bolshevik collectivist backdrop of the USSR can be ignored.

American Paleo-Conservatives and their counterparts in Europe are actually (classical) Liberals, as some of them argue, and thus they have no ground to stand on in these framings. But the vacuum left is filled by the Populo-Fascists, such as Trumpism, whose rhetoric can easily make common ground with the global Fascist movement including Putin's.

"Time is running out for liberalism". That is the key message the Kremlin has fed to Russian citizens over the last decade. ​

​

After being daily bombarded with images portraying the decline and decay of the liberal West, recent opinion polls conducted by the Levada centre have highlighted that most Russians embrace conservative values. With a deep sense of surprise many analysts ponder, where are all the liberals of the 1980s and 1990s that signed off on the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War? Such is the magnitude of the shift to traditional values that Vladimir Putin’s presidency managed to achieve.​

​

Putin seems now eager to expand this promotion of conservative ideas deep into the global arena. In this week’s interview with the FT, he churned out a series of well-rehearsed messages that most Russians would be able to recite even if woken in the middle of the night. ​

​

In short, liberalism is obsolete; most of the world outside of the West embraces conservative values; and it is only a manner of time until most Europeans will recognise the importance of this “traditional” way of thinking.​

​

Upset as they may rightly be, Western liberals will find it hard to dispel the signs of the decline of liberalism obsessively presented by the Russian leadership and media. The rise of nationalism and right-wing or left-wing populism, Europe’s response to the migrant crisis, or Britain’s messy exit from the EU are symptoms of decay and disorder that are difficult to overlook. ...​

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/putin-vladimir-russia-liberalism-death-ft-interview-g20-a8979431.html​

Is Liberalism dying of its own accord, or is there a Fifth Column driving it into a ditch?

I'll try later to find the referenced FT interview with Putin, but I believe these are usually behind a paywall.

 

[Jerry Russell]

I'll try later to find the referenced FT interview with Putin, but I believe these are usually behind a paywall.

Here it is, with no paywall.

https://www.ft.com/content/878d2344-98f0-11e9-9573-ee5cbb98ed36

It seems that by "the liberal idea" he means atheism, unlimited migration, multiculturalism, and LGBT. He is not criticizing democracy or capitalism; on the contrary, he jokes that Russia is more democratic that the UK. And he says that the liberal ideal can coexist with traditional ideals, and that LGBT persons should "live as they wish", and that Russia is working with immigrants.

Here's an interesting quote, which seems to speak to the issue of whether Putin is part of the "Global Fascist Movement":

You know, first of all, we do not have oligarchs any more. Oligarchs are those who use their proximity to the authorities to receive super profits. We have large companies, private ones, or with government participation. But I do not know of any large companies that get preferential treatment from being close to the authorities, these are practically non-existent.​

​

When I pasted this, I got a warning message that I was violating copyright, and should simply share the link. I believe that such a short quote as this is an appropriate fair use under US copyright laws.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Thanks for the link, interesting that they seem to have embedded some pop-up code to enforce such counterproductive non-sense.

I think based upon what people are complaining about him saying about the LGBT issue is that he really meant, behind his rhetoric, is that they "should breath as they wish", not "live as they wish". Same for Russian journalists.

Trump just thinks that "Western Liberalism" is about those radical lefties on the Left Coast, but we can never be sure when he is trolling us or just legitimately ignorant and scatter-brained, or just pretending. In any case, I don't think I can believe Putin's rhetoric on any of these matters any more than I trust anything Trump says. For more see here: https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/just-saying-whos-trumping-der-fuhrer.1548/post-12272

In any case, the following is interesting -- regarding a new tripartite world order:

...​

What does that all mean?​

​

First and foremost, it signals the beginning of Trump’s firm focus on his reelection campaign, where a scuffle, or worse, with Russia and China would be a devastating event and leave him as a one-term player — even in the context of a rather uninspiring lineup of Democratic competitors.​

​

Calming things down with two countries branded by Washington as strategic competitors hell-bent on undermining America’s world order is a priority — “for now,” as Trump likes to say.​

​

And, as he also would say, “we shall see later,” presumably after his reelection.​

​

Will that fly as a feasible election strategy? Yes it will, because, as said earlier, Trump correctly sees that picking a fight with Russia and China is an existential threat to humanity Americans and the rest of the world would not support.​

​

So, Trump looks for peaceful and negotiated solutions with Russia in Syria, Ukraine and Venezuela, with a carrot for Moscow in opening up huge opportunities for American businesses eager to expand their operations in the country’s investment-starved enormous territories. In fact, the American business delegation was one of the largest at the recent economic forum in St. Petersburg, Russia.​

​

Moscow’s allegedly key policy influence within the OPEC oil cartel is also seen as a precious help in holding energy prices down, and staying the Federal Reserve’s hand in hiking interest rates to forestall energy-driven inflation pressures. ...​

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/01/commentary-trumps-new-world-order-is-built-around-us-china-russia.html​

It's interesting that Russia is helping to hold down world oil prices, a big problem for Venezuela.

 

[Richard Stanley]

This Al Jazeera production discusses that the oligarch system of Ukraine is intimately connected to that of Russia, as one should naturally suspect, given its simultaneous rise from the end of the USSR (and the assistance of the Clinton regime).

While for the respective common peoples, the national distinctions may be of note, for the corrpt elites everything is connected across borders, same as everywhere else. It's all about the dinero.

 

[Richard Stanley]

The following is a very interesting discussion between Dan Rather and Stephen Cohen (and his wife Katrina Vanden Heuvel) regarding America's current relationship with Russia, centered around Cohen's recent book, War with Russia? This discussion takes place some time before the release of the Mueller Report.

In the book Cohen posits that 'Russiagate' should better be thought of as (Western) 'Intelgate', and it seems that we have separately come to this general conclusion here as well, albeit we are much more Machiavellian in analytical approach. As such, Cohen discusses the background context of the (Bill) Clinton era machinations with Yeltsin that was the set-up for Putin to respond to. For me, this begs the question of whether Putin can be seen as an expected refractory response or not. But, in any case, the Russians hate Hillary for not just her own sake, but because of Bill and his minions.

Cohen also places 'Russian' election interference in some interesting context, as well as 'private communications' between such leaders. He also mentions the irony that 'Liberal's and such are currently championing the intel community, when traditionally they have been highly suspicious given the highly right wing bent of the intel community. This shift was due to the corporate influence of such as the Clintons and the 'third way'.

Near the end, Cohn mentions that after Trump is gone (I guess even after a possible Trump dynastic dictatorship) that the intel community will still be here. It seems so to me, and given the current appearance that Trump is having a meltdown, it certainly seems that the intel community is winning, and that perhaps Trump has merely helped prepare the way for what comes next, ... Pence or some corporate Democrat?

 

[Richard Stanley]

They following is an interesting debate/discussion between Stephen Cohen and former ambassador McFaul about the origins of the so-called New Cold War with Russia.

While there is disagreement over the role of Obama, there seems to be none over the negative roles of both Bushes and Bill Clinton (and Hillary did this no good as well with her jingoism to say the least).

 

[Richard Stanley]

The following is a great discussion of the Internet Research Agency / Russian Troll Farm controversy.

In the conetxt of that I believe the entire Trump scenario is a Yuuge psyop (of Biblical proportions), I have to agree with Jefferson Morley that IRA owner, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, does not undertake many business matters separate from his other main business interests, especially considering that he owns the Russian equivalent of Blackwater, currently operating in three warzones, and a firm that supplies food services for the Russian military.

One can indeed debate about the actual voter influence the suggestive ads were, but in my opinion the main purpose of the effort is to allow a deflection away from the globalist Deep State objective of getting Trump elected ... to cause the Chaos that he is scripted to do quite well. The globalist Deep State's involvement is betrayed by numerous aspects as I've discussed before. To reiterate:

• The massively incompetent campaign of corporate globalist Hillary's (and Bill's negative help)
• The preparing of the way by the RNC in allowing such unprecedented number of 'weak' candidates, including Low Energy Jeb.
• The bizarre actions of Comey

Such was then followed by the repeated post-election failures of Dems and Republicans to defend the Constitution, in blatant contrast to just prior claims and actions of the Republicans, and the complete lack of financial disclosure either of IRS tax returns or from the Mueller and/or other investigations.

 

[Jerry Russell]

I have to agree with Jefferson Morley that IRA owner, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, does not undertake many business matters separate from his other main business interests, especially considering that he owns the Russian equivalent of Blackwater, currently operating in three warzones, and a firm that supplies food services for the Russian military.

OK, I had the impression that Prigozhin owned a hot dog stand. So he's more like Ray Kroc combined with Erik Prince.

And just because the Russian Troll Farm was selling a lot of ads, doesn't mean they didn't also have a political agenda. Every major media corporation in the USA sells a lot of ads along with their propaganda.

Jefferson Morley comes across with a very strong argument here, although you still have to give Putin credit for running a plausibly deniable operation.

I hadn't heard of Morley before. He operates a JFK assassination website, highlighting his successful FOIA lawsuit against the CIA to obtain information about George Joannides, a CIA agent who obstructed two official JFK investigations.

 

[Richard Stanley]

OK, I had the impression that Prigozhin owned a hot dog stand. So he's more like Ray Kroc combined with Erik Prince.

I thought I had created a post on Prigozhin's mercenary business, but I can't find it.

The following is informative on the true relationship of the Clintons to Putin, regarding the Russian money funneled to them, while the surface narrative is about how much the Clinton's were hated by Putin. To recall, Yeltsin came to power because of the help of the Clinton administration, and Putin was Yeltsin's boy. That Putin was former KGB provided great cover for Putin appearing to take a Soviet view of the new capitalist excesses, and then appear to be anti-Clinton.
https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/just-saying-whos-trumping-der-fuhrer.1548/post-13501

There is also something bizarre about this Ukraine - Russia war, where Prigozhin's mercs are operating. It is being advertised as some kind of proxy war, but it is bizarre even in that context. Putin had no problem to overtly take Crimea, but he is playing this odd and coy game in the Donbass region. Why not just be done with the whole thing, as one of the strongest militaries in the world? NATO did nothing about Crimea. Them there are all these various Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs casually doing business on both sides of the border, as well as the Republicans and Democrats.

 

[Richard Stanley]

This recent (3 min) clip discusses Russia's desire to step up in the aid vacuum created by Trump. It asks who is really meant to benefit in the new relationships that Russia is seeking with authoritarian African leaders (following essentially the same Euro-American neocolonialist model). "Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss"?

It begs the question that if Russia is too feeble to exploit its own vast resources what it is doing in places like Africa? The following is a concise primer on the Mindset of Russia and explains why they supposedly can't thrive. They are too obsessed with playing King of the Non-Hill, the undefendable Moscow.

At least this is the story. We saw in our analysis of Suvorov's Icebreaker that Stalin played a very strange game (with Hitler) on the Grand Chessboard.

 

[Seeker]

Hmmm, if Stalin could be compared to Julius Caesar, the real winner of the "Triumvirate" of Powers, both within (before WW2) and without (during and after WW2) the Soviet Union, and Gorbachev the Augustus (although unfortunately he was also his own Varus at the end of his rule), then could Putin be Trajan, who accomplished the greatest expansion of the Roman Empire, however temporary?