Regime change needed in Russia? A debate

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Back in the Soviet days, it seems reasonable to assume that Russian money arriving in Britain must have been dirty. Nobody in Russia was supposed to get paid that much. One might even argue that the British banks were colluding with Russian nomenklatura, to defraud and undermine the Soviet government.

Nowadays, it's not so obvious that these Russian oligarchs are any different from any Western businessman. They simply are following typical capitalist incentives to invest a portion of their fortunes abroad, in "stable" monetary systems. Right? Not to say that some of these funds might be derived from criminal sources, either by Western or Russian standards. But there's no basis for stating that as a ground-level assumption.

The Guardian, like the BBC, is not what I would consider an unbiased source for journalism about Russia. For a counter-narrative, check out https://off-guardian.org. Today they featured this video deconstruction of a BBC report from Moscow, produced by reporter Graham Phillips. Phillips says that he's a British-trained journalist, and did an internship with the Guardian before moving to Ukraine in 2011. He's been entirely supported by crowdfunding and you-tube channel ads since 2015, although before that he did some freelance work for RT and Zvezda.

 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
That Putin and friends are providing better accommodations for Russians than temporary Soviet ones is nice. Trump's daddy made his big money doing similar on the East Coast after WWII, but he was also a slum lord like the Kushners, and a racist one at that. But maybe that's propaganda as well?

In any case, I'm not sure that this living quarters relocation matter is getting to the central issues. Hitler and Mussolini did a lot of great things as well, hence "they made the trains run on time", etc..
Nowadays, it's not so obvious that these Russian oligarchs are any different from any Western businessman. They simply are following typical capitalist incentives to invest a portion of their fortunes abroad, in "stable" monetary systems. Right? Not to say that some of these funds might be derived from criminal sources, either by Western or Russian standards. But there's no basis for stating that as a ground-level assumption.
Buying expensive foreign real estate and leaving it empty is an odd form of investing Jerry. When I was thinking about moving up to the Seattle area in the mid-90's I had an offer to mansion-sit for such a Russian. He was also buying a place in LA, which is how I knew about this opportunity - I knew the LA agent.

Are you aware of even one Russian oligarch that started out the non-crony way?

Why isn't Graham Phillips talking about such as this instead of making excuses for not upsetting the lovely Natalya? Interesting that he lives and works out of Ukraine. Like it's interesting that the Ukrainian government shut down the Ukrainian cooperation into the US investigation of Paul Manafort's political and money laundering activities for Russian interests in Ukraine. This after Trump agreed to let them buy lots of weapons.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hitler and Mussolini did a lot of great things as well, hence "they made the trains run on time", etc..
Hitler and Mussolini are not disdained because they did a lot of things well. They are disdained because of their aggressive campaign to conquer the world, killing untold millions in the process. Not to mention Hitler's genocidal hatred of the Jews.

Western propaganda tries to paint Putin as another Hitler, but the allegations of genocidal policies and blitzkrieg conquests don't ring true. Western accusations against Russia are more like psychological projection: in reality it's the US and its allies that are carrying out genocides, and trying to conquer one country after another.

Buying expensive foreign real estate and leaving it empty is an odd form of investing Jerry.
Vacancies happen in spite of the best of intentions. I have a couple of vacant units right now, and one being house-sat for no rent. All this proves, is that I suck at being a landlord.

Are you aware of even one Russian oligarch that started out the non-crony way?
By "crony" you mean those industrialists who started out as Soviet officials, who took advantage of their position to obtain concessions under Yeltsin's Western-driven privatization campaign, right? In the West, the industrial & banking empires tend to be inherited. The older generations of those families were perhaps more into "crony" activities.

With the Yeltsin era now ~30 years in the past, there are some new Russian fortunes, especially in the Internet area. These are easy to find with Google; for example, see:

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-top-10-russian-internet-entrepreneurs-to-watch-15459

Russia is a neoliberal capitalist state, with only very modest steps taken towards Henry George style socialism. It's not a Utopia. Neither is it the Mordor that BBC is trying to paint.

Why isn't Graham Phillips talking about such as this instead of making excuses for not upsetting the lovely Natalya?
Did you see anything wrong with Phillips' analysis of Natalya's motives? He may not have had all the answers, but at least was asking the right questions. And I agreed with him, that there didn't seem to be much point in trying to interview Natalya. I would be interested to know more about "Dozhd", the Russian TV channel that was filming Natalya's protest.

Interesting that he lives and works out of Ukraine.
He moved to Kiev in 2011, but eventually his reporting got him kicked over to Donbass. Nowadays, it's not obvious to me whether he lives anywhere in particular. His videos are coming from all over now, he seems to have a travel budget.

Like it's interesting that the Ukrainian government shut down the Ukrainian cooperation into the US investigation of Paul Manafort's political and money laundering activities for Russian interests in Ukraine. This after Trump agreed to let them buy lots of weapons.
And this is somehow Graham Phillips' fault?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
And I agreed with him, that there didn't seem to be much point in trying to interview Natalya.
On second thought: from a journalistic ethics point of view, I think Graham Phillips had an obligation to offer Natalya an opportunity to respond to his criticism. And the odds of getting any kind of response might not be good, but the effort might possibly be rewarded with some very interesting information.

I posted a comment on You-Tube, encouraging Phillips to go back and try to get the interview.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Hitler and Mussolini are not disdained because they did a lot of things well. They are disdained because of their aggressive campaign to conquer the world, killing untold millions in the process. Not to mention Hitler's genocidal hatred of the Jews.

Western propaganda tries to paint Putin as another Hitler, but the allegations of genocidal policies and blitzkrieg conquests don't ring true. Western accusations against Russia are more like psychological projection: in reality it's the US and its allies that are carrying out genocides, and trying to conquer one country after another.
Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Putin, Trump, Dutarte, etc.. are all part of a larger reactionary trend against the natural chaos of 'liberal democracy' (of which I assert that reactionary forces have been fomented extra chaos to stimulate support). Again, I say a pox on all their houses Jerry.

In any case, such as Hitler, Mussolini, Muhammad, and Joshua ben Nun are not disdained even today by their surviving partisans who felt and feel that they were only doing their respective earlier versions of MAGA.

Perhaps poor Putin has been the victim of minor Russian political parties and Natalya, but he talks and acts as a typical strong man. Rather than integrate Russia profitably into the world order, he has chosen, either out of sincere paranoia or feigned paranoia of the western 'West', to keep himself out of the world order. Which one might argue has placed Russia at risk of failing prey to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Whether he has actively 'colluded' with Trumpsky or not, Putin has to be beaming at what agent Trumpsky has achieved for Russia vis-a-vis the current schism and confusion in the western West, and inside of the USA itself.
Vacancies happen in spite of the best of intentions. I have a couple of vacant units right now, and one being house-sat for no rent. All this proves, is that I suck at being a landlord.
These people are buying such properties with no intent to rent, to merely use them as parking places for their stashes of cash, a modern version of hiding cash under the mattress. Of course, this (and monetary inflation) is also great for those 'natives' who also hold such mansions otherwise because this helps maintain value in economic downturns. Builders have more incentive to build more mansions than necessary and then place more pressure on down markets. Rents, even on one bedroom apartments, are outrageous in major cities.
By "crony" you mean those industrialists who started out as Soviet officials, who took advantage of their position to obtain concessions under Yeltsin's Western-driven privatization campaign, right? In the West, the industrial & banking empires tend to be inherited. The older generations of those families were perhaps more into "crony" activities.
Why are you ignoring the more apropos (from being near identical in time) comparison between the dismal conversion of Russia with that of most of the other Soviet block countries - in terms of more equitable distribution of assets?

If Washington D.C. and London made Yeltsin, and Yeltsin made Putin, then .... maybe Putin is their profitable little bitch (sukin sin), another controlled opposition?

Did you see anything wrong with Phillips' analysis of Natalya's motives? He may not have had all the answers, but at least was asking the right questions. And I agreed with him, that there didn't seem to be much point in trying to interview Natalya. I would be interested to know more about "Dozhd", the Russian TV channel that was filming Natalya's protest.
As I said, the whole thing was pointless, Phillips should be talking about more substantive issues than where lovely Natalya wants to live. Like, is Putin (and Trumpsky) somebody's sukin sin?
And this is somehow Graham Phillips' fault?
Mozhet bit da ely mozhet bit nyet. I don't know him from Adam, but he looks like he might be related to Khrushchev. :rolleyes:
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
As I said, the whole thing was pointless, Phillips should be talking about more substantive issues than where lovely Natalya wants to live.
Right, the BBC should be talking about more substantive issues than Natalya's apartment. Out of all the awful things that one would think must be going on in Russia, this is the worst they could come up with??

Phillips' point, in this particular video, is mainly about how lame the BBC is. BBC and the Guardian, birds of a feather. Which was my point.

Why are you ignoring the more apropos (from being near identical in time) comparison between the dismal conversion of Russia with that of most of the other Soviet block countries - in terms of more equitable distribution of assets?
You mean like, for example, Ukraine? Phillips talks about how this transition went in Ukraine, and shows that he's familiar with the 'oligarch' issue, here:

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2015/04/20/ukraine-and-the-90s-nihilism-part-1-of-2/

The country’s economy immediately hit problems in the 90s, GDP falling year-on-year as the newly independent nation, as of August 24th 1991, endured hyperinflation and a crippling collapse in economic output. By 1999, the Ukrainian economy had fallen to its lowest point, with GDP around half what it had been in 1990. Coupled with this decline was a newly liberal Ukraine, breaking free from Soviet shackles with abandon which sent waves crashing through society. ...

THE RISE OF THE OLIGARCHS
Rinat Akhmetov, born in 1966, is Ukraine’s wealthiest person, with a fortune of $16 billion-plus putting him both at the yearly top of Ukraine’s rich list, and regularly top 50 on the Forbes list. He rose from a family of a coal-miner father and shop assistant mother. Much of his life up until 2000 is the subject of debate and dispute. It is known that in the 1980s Akhmetov worked as an assistant to Akhat Bragin, a man law enforcement agencies classed as a powerful criminal boss. And it has been alleged that Akhmetov’s empire began with the extorting of properties in Donetsk in the early 1990s. Akhmetov himself claims he made his fortune through risky investments in coal and coke in the aftermath of the fall of the Soviet Union. Yet in the investigative history book Donetsk Mafia: Anthology, Ukrainian author Sergey Kuzin claims Akhmetov held the role of a ‘mafia thug‘ in his early years, something Akhmetov has always vigorously denied.

After the 90s, Akhmetov founded System Capital Management Group, in 2000, and has been its sole proprietor since 2009, with company assets worth an estimated $30 billion. Modern Akhmetov, politician and owner of football club Shakhtar Donetsk is ranked as Ukraine’s number 1 philanthropist, with reports on his donations ranging from tens of millions, to even hundreds of millions of dollars. He has defended himself against allegations of ties to organised crime through a robust PR operation and numerous lawsuits against media both local and international. His Wikipedia page is rigorously maintained to reflect accusations retracted. Yet, despite all the philanthropy, say the name Akhmetov to a Ukrainian and a typical response is one word: ‘bandit’ (gangster).

Prime Minister of the 90s Pavlo Lazarenko was convicted in August 2006 in the United States, for money laundering, wire fraud and extortion. A count by the United Nations put the amount he had looted from Ukraine during his 1996-1997 tenure at $200 million. During his time in national government, Lazarenko maintained a close business relationship with fellow Dnipropetrovsk native Yulia Tymoshenko, then CEO of Yedyni Energosystemy Ukrayiny (United Energy Systems of Ukraine), a monopoly that imported Russian natural gas.

In addition to money looting, Lazarenko was also implicated in the murder of Yevhen Shcherban, a wealthy businessman and leader of Ukraine’s Liberal Party; and he reportedly planned to assassinate Oleksandr Volkov, a close associate of President Leonid Kuchma. As public uproar grew against Lazarenko, who had resigned before being forced out in 1997, he fled Ukraine in 1999, claiming asylum in the USA. He remains there in prison, serving a 9-year sentence. In 2004 Transparency International named Lazarenko the eighth most corrupt political leader in recent history.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
You mean like, for example, Ukraine?
The Ukraine is possibly the worst example, since it was early ran much like the Russian transition and the Russian's had heavy political influence there, via the likes of Manafort, Podesta, and friends.

In any case, using the above individuals as examples, it would be more helpful to know their exact political alignments vis-a-vis Russia and the Ukraine. Manafort's President of Ukraine was overthrown violently, because he was in bed with the Russians, and where he resides in exile now. But, maybe all of this is western Western propaganda as well?
 

Suchender

Member
"...Hitler and Mussolini are disdained because of their aggressive campaign to conquer the world, killing untold millions in the process. Not to mention Hitler's genocidal hatred of the Jews...."

Jerry, why are you repeating this propaganda ?
Maybe you are just not interested in these subjects, so you did not explore them yourself.
But repeating such nonsense makes you look ignorant of real events.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hello Suchender, welcome to our little corner of the Internet, and thanks for reading.

My main point was to make a contrast between Hitler & Mussolini vs. Putin. In making such a brief summary, I probably did oversimplify the situation.

If I were to amend my statement, I might add that it's not entirely clear to what extent Hitler was an independent actor, vs. to what extent he was operating under direction of higher powers. Or perhaps he was unwittingly working on behalf of their agenda. The bulk of death and destruction in the European theater during the war accrued to German, Russian and Polish interests, all of which benefited primarily the Anglo-Americans. Even Hitler's genocidal intentions towards the Jews, ultimately paved the way for the establishment of the state of Israel, a geopolitical outpost for Anglo-American interests in the Middle East.

Is there anything else you would like to add about "real events" of World War II?
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Jerry, why are you repeating this propaganda ?
Isn't it true that Hitler is indeed disdained by 'most people' for their actions, whether real or fabricated? As Jerry is getting to in his reply to you, I think that the reality is far worse than either the official story or such as the Holocaust Deniers want to admit. For starters, what Edwin Black (a Jew BTW) documented in his The Transfer Agreement and Leni Brenner (a Jew BTW) in his 51 Documents, both about Zionist collaboration with the Nazis.

Ironically, the apocalyptic minded Rev. Hagee got in PC trouble for implying that Hitler gave us modern Israel, but that is exactly the result. And Black and Brenner revealed the truth of the matter. Sadly, it was the Russian Jabotinsky-ites, today's Likud Party, who were fueled by their hatred for their well-to-do German Jewish cousins that helped enable what happened, in Germany at least.

What else did Hitler 'accomplish', say in terms of (somebody's) realpolitik?
  • Like the Jewish nationalist Zealots 2,000 years before, he got millions of the new blonde, blue-eyed Master Race killed (and H wasn't either blonde or blue-eyed)
  • Eventually the EU rose out of the ashes, structurally modeled upon USA type federalism
With the common Jewish Zealots (the Chosen), it seems their elite leaders betrayed them, having had another hidden agenda all along. Their elites, like Josephus Flavius (Macabbee) were colluding with the Romans.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
In any case, using the above individuals as examples, it would be more helpful to know their exact political alignments vis-a-vis Russia and the Ukraine.
Getting back to this topic, I took a few minutes to research what happened to the oligarchs mentioned in Phillips' report. Lazarenko is living in Marin County after serving out a 12-year US prison sentence, and his $250 million profits from Ukraine is in Swiss bank accounts whose fate is to be decided in upcoming legal battles. (see Archived NY Times article.)

Akhmetov basically sided with the Russians and his considerably diminished business empire is now based in Donbass.

Manafort's President of Ukraine was overthrown violently, because he was in bed with the Russians, and where he resides in exile now. But, maybe all of this is western Western propaganda as well?
According to Phillips, the Russians were offering the Ukraine a better deal than the EU, and the majority of Ukrainians preferred the Russian alliance. That's why the former democratically elected president of the Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovich, was quite appropriately leaning towards the Russians. As you say, Yanukovich was indeed violently overthrown by the Euromaidan fascist coup of 2014, and is now residing in exile in Russia.

Reporting from on the scene, Phillips says:

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2016/06/05/euro-2012-svoboda-bandera-the-rise-of-fascism-in-ukraine-when-i-quit-kiev/

When Euromaidan got going, some of the first footage I saw from it featured Svoboda members, Oleg Tyagnibok, and other radicals, not only in the crowd, but up on the hastily-erected stages. It’s not a big stretch to think that ‘if guys from a party based on the original Nazi party are supporting this, then maybe this isn’t the right side.’ Or more aptly, the correct side, because Maidan was the right, the far-right, the misled, the deceived, the chronic Ukrainian dreamers who really did believe that if you force out an elected president and government, by violence, then it’s happily ever after…

I started tweeting the Maidan I saw, in the context I knew, early doors. And I’d add that the context was that I knew Ukraine, having been to every part, including Donbass (here, Donetsk 2012). And with an overt anti-Russian mood to Maidan from early on, it was clear that Donbass, Crimea of course, weren’t going to be a part of it.

The fact that my tweets didn’t take the narrative of the west meant my phone was silent, there was no inbox with offers to report on the ‘glorious uprising‘, ‘peaceful people’s revolution‘ etc, that the west wanted to hear about . They went with journalists who would write that copy for them, and they were many. So they were in, I was out.

I thought ‘f*ck it’, effectively, and just kept on writingarticles for my blog, sometimes several a day (grahamwphillips.com – I took that site down ages ago, it was a personaly blog hardly appropriate for covering war on, you can find it archived). The blog posts started attracting a readership, and one day I got a Facebook message from a producer, Maria, at RT, asking me to go on air for an interview. I’d never in my life have thought of working for Russian media before, nothing against them, but I’d always as a British person generally gravitated to the BBC, et al. But, you know what, if they’ll let you say what you see, what you know to be true, then go for it. So, I went for it, this video from early December 2013.

More articles from Phillips about the Euromaidan coup here:

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2016/06/05/euro-2012-svoboda-bandera-the-rise-of-fascism-in-ukraine-when-i-quit-kiev/

https://thetruthspeaker.co/2016/02/21/2-years-on-the-12-triumphs-of-euromaidan/
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
I don't know Jerry. But from the excerpt below, at least, sounds to me like you have a lot more cleanup work to do at Wikipedia.

It's interesting that these Ukrainian Nazis wanted to join the EU. The lesser of two evils perhaps? Or, maybe they were to the anti-Yanukovych movement as American Nazis, the KKK, and the alt-right are to Trump, just more convenient useful idiots? Maybe Angela Merkel is really a crypto-Nazi, I don't know, as I don't live there (Germany or Ukraine) or have immersed myself in all these nuances. I'm still not sure that Phillips is giving us the straight dope in any case.

I have to say, though, that spending $800 to help sick fishies doesn't seem like such a bad pescitarian expenditure. Poor fishies, caught in the political crossfire as well.

Reports of corruption and cronyism
Yanukovych has been widely criticized for "massive" corruption and cronyism.[173][174][175][176][177]

By January 2013, more than half of the ministers appointed by Yanukovych were either born in the Donbas region or made some crucial part of their careers there, and Yanukovych has been accused of "regional cronyism" for his staffing of police, judiciary, and tax services "all over Ukraine" with "Donbas people".[178] Over 46% of the budget subventions for social and economic development was allotted to the Donbas region's Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast administrations – 0.62 billion UAH ($76.2 million) versus 0.71 billion UAH ($87.5 million) for the rest of the country.[179]

Anders Åslund, a Swedish economist and Ukraine analyst, described the consolidation of Ukrainian economic power in the hands of a few "elite industrial tycoons", one of the richest and most influential of whom has become President Yanukovych's own son Oleksandr Yanukovych. The exact distribution of wealth and precise weight of influence are difficult to gauge, but most of the country's richest men were afraid to cross the Yanukovich family, even in cases where their own economic interests favored an economically pro-EU Ukraine.[174] Young "robber capitalis[ts] have been buying up both public and private businesses at "rock bottom" prices available in the stagnating economic conditions brought on by Yanukovych's economic policies."[180] According to Åslund, one notable exception to the Yanukovych family's influence was Petro Poroshenko, who is described as "uncommonly courageous", although his confectionery empire is less susceptible to ruin by the substantial power the Yanukovych family wielded in the heavy industry sectors located in Yanukovych's geographic power base of Donetsk.[174]

Yanukovych had an estimated net worth of $12 billion,[citation needed] and has been accused by Ukrainian officials of misappropriating funds from Ukraine's treasury. Arseniy Yatsenyuk has claimed that treasury funds of up to $70 billion were transferred to foreign accounts during Yanukovych's presidency. [181] Authorities in Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein froze the assets of Yanukovych and his son Oleksander on 28 February 2014 pending a money laundering investigation. Yanukovych has denied that he embezzled funds and has said that his alleged foreign accounts do not exist.

On 12 January 2015, Interpol issued a Red Notice for him, making him a wanted person, on charges of 'Misappropriation, embezzlement or conversion of property by malversation, if committed in respect of an especially gross amount, or by an organized group.'[182]

Personal excesses
In a feature with photos on Yanukovych's Mezhyhirya mansion, Sergii Leshchenko notes "For most of [Yanukovych's] career he was a public servant or parliament deputy, where his salary never exceeded 2000 US dollars per month." Under a photo showing the new home's ornate ceiling, Leschenko remarks, "In a country where 35% of the population live under poverty line, spending 100,000 dollars on each individual chandelier seems excessive, to say the least." Crowned with a pure copper roof, the mansion was the largest wooden structure ever created by Finnish log home builder Honka, whose representative suggested to Yanukovych that it be nominated for the Guinness Book of Records. The property contained a private zoo, underground shooting range, 18-hole golf course, tennis, and bowling. After describing the mansion's complicated ownership scheme, the article author noted, "The story of Viktor Yanukovych and his residence highlights a paradox. Having completely rejected such European values as human rights and democracy, the Ukrainian president uses Europe as a place to hide his dirty money with impunity." [173]

Documents recovered from Yanukovych's compound show among other expenses $800 medical treatment for fish, $14,500 spent on tablecloths, and a nearly 42 million dollar order for light fixtures. Also recovered were files on Yanukovych's perceived enemies, especially media members, including beating victim Tetyana Chornovol. The cost of monitoring the mass media was reportedly $5.7 million just for the month of December 2010.[183]

Yanukovych told BBC Newsnight (in June 2015) that stories that Mezhyhirya cost the Ukrainian taxpayer millions of dollars were "political technology and spin" and that the estate did not belong to him personally; he claimed that the ostriches in the residence's petting zoo "just happened to be there".[184]

Accusations of police abuse and vote rigging
Yanukovych has been accused, by Amnesty International among others, of using the Berkut to threaten, attack, and torture Ukrainian protesters. The Berkut, recently disbanded, were a controversial national police force under his personal command. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe confirmed witness accounts of voters being blocked from access to polls and being attacked along with local election officials who tried to frustrate the Berkut's practice of falsifying voters' ballots in favor of Yanukovych's Party of Regions candidates. Individual cases have been reported of citizens grouping together and fighting back against the Berkut in order to preserve election integrity and results.[11] Upon coming to power Yanukovych had reversed oversight measures established during the Yushchenko administration to restrain the Berkut's abuse of citizens whereupon the special force "upped its brutality."[185]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Background_to_removal
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Of course, if it weren't for the following all being 'lies', it's interesting to note that, besides the east / west Ukrainian divide the political divide is generational, and educational; between the younger and better educated Ukrainians and the older, lesser educated Ukrainians. Hmmm, where have we heard this before?

Despite even my concerns about the underlying historical machinations of the formation of the federated American Union and the federated European Union, generally everyone agrees that most citizens are better off when trade rules, taxes, and other laws are uniformal (e.g the US Interstate Commerce Clause). But, for some reason, autocrats, or wannabe autocrats, seem to prefer ginning up support for nationalism. The best place to gin up support is amongst the less educated and older, who unfortunately have indeed tended to get left behind. Say what one wants about how great Putin is, but he and Trumputin are cynically playing by the rules that benefit themselves most, over the majority of their people.

Lviv-based historian Yaroslav Hrytsak also remarked on the generational shift,

This is a revolution of the generation that we call the contemporaries of Ukraine's independence (who were born around the time of 1991); it is more similar to the Occupy Wall Street protests or those in Istanbul demonstrations (of this year). It's a revolution of young people who are very educated, people who are active in social media, who are mobile and 90 percent of whom have university degrees, but who don't have futures.[89]

According to Hrytsak: "Young Ukrainians resemble young Italians, Czech, Poles, or Germans more than they resemble Ukrainians who are 50 and older. This generation has a stronger desire for European integration and fewer regional divides than their seniors."[157] In a Kyiv International Institute of Sociology poll taken in September, joining the European Union was mostly supported by young Ukrainians (69.8% of those aged 18 to 29), higher than the national average of 43.2% support.[158][159] A November 2013 poll by the same institute found the same result with 70.8% aged 18 to 29 wanting to join the European Union while 39.7% was the national average of support.[158] An opinion poll by GfK conducted 2–15 October found that among respondents aged 16–29 with a position on integration, 73% favoured signing an Association Agreement with the EU, while only 45% of those over the age of 45 favoured Association. The lowest support for European integration was among people with incomplete secondary and higher education.[144]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
But from the excerpt below, at least, sounds to me like you have a lot more cleanup work to do at Wikipedia
Indeed. As you know, Wikipedia reports the full and unbiased facts about matters such as 911, the JFK assassination, the origin of Christianity, and other controversial matters. And if it doesn't, anybody can go right in there and fix it.

However, even Wikipedia gives a more even-handed account of events than you do. The Berkut were considerably restrained during the 2010 election, but Yanukovych won anyhow. According to Wikipedia, the BBC and the Guardian said the 2010 election was "judged free and fair" by international observers.

In this ~2016 story, the Swiss ambassador to Ukraine confirms that Yanukovich and his associates deposited $70 billion in Swiss bank accounts. The money was promptly frozen after Yanukovich was deposed. But, surprise surprise, the Ukrainian fascists now in power, are reportedly too lazy to ask for the money back. So who gets the money now? Rothschilds and their lawyers, I suppose.

https://ti-ukraine.org/en/news/ukraine-s-last-chance-in-recovering-the-yanukovych-assets/

At this link:

https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp

Note that during the time that Yanukovich and/or his "team" were in charge, the Ukraine GDP grew from $40 Billion to a peak of $180 Billion, more than quadruple. And for that, Yanukovich and friends only boosted their net worth by $70 Billion, which is less than half of a years' revenue? By Western capitalist standards, this is very cost effective management.

I am being facetious here, but this is how crony capitalism works. The difference between Ukraine under Yanukovych, and the USA, is that Ukraine is not promoting a world empire, or invading other countries.

Whereas, it's not completely inaccurate to describe Euromaidan as a foreign intervention, driven by the usual cast of suspects: Soros, USAID, National Endowment for Democracy, FBI, CIA, IMF, US State Dept. & etc., although confirmation of that doesn't appear in Wikipedia. Duck Duck Go turns up Infowars and Larouche as the best sources, but it looks well supported to me.

https://www.infowars.com/soros-admits-responsibility-for-coup-and-mass-murder-in-ukraine/

Since Euromaidan, Ukraine GDP has collapsed back down to $90 Billion. Somebody's got their hand really deep in the cookie jar now. Although the general state of chaos and civil war can't be helping, either.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Maybe the GDP is down because Ukraine no longer has Crimea, and the impact of the military conflict.

So are the Ukraininan Nazis for the EU or not?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
So are the Ukraininan Nazis for the EU or not?
Once again relying on Wikipedia for a baseline narrative, they say that the Ukraine Nazis did sign an association agreement with the EU. But they are not qualified to join the EU as a full member nation, because of their poor economic and social condition.

Judging from their narrative, it also seems likely that Yanukovych did want to sign that EU association agreement. The deal was being delayed as aspects were being negotiated among the EU, Russia and the Ukrainian parliament, and the delay led to his downfall.

One of the key issues that caused the delay, was that Ukrainian Parliament refused to grant freedom for Yulia Tymoshenko, who had been convicted of embezzlement. The EU was apparently standing up for her right to embezzle, since everyone in the West does that. In her defense, it seems that Yulia might have been stepping on Yanukovych's toes, elbowing in on his own crony deals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union–Ukraine_relations
 
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Suchender

Member
I probably did oversimplify the situation......
Is there anything else you would like to add about "real events" of World War II?
Good afternoon Jerry.

I have read all your articles on this site and I like your ideas and explanations on this Flavian topic.
I just wanted you to realise, that you can improve your language on that particular topic, and simply avoid those buzzwords The Ministry of Truth is using to brainwash us all :
Hitler's genocidal intentions..... which is not true, especially toward INNOCENT Jews.
And other points in your previous post, which are also false.
AND perhaps the MOST killer-buzzword : Holocaust Denier. This one is really a weapon used by the Special Interest - The natural enemies of the Truth, as David Irving is calling them.

Thank you for the wonderful work on this site !
I'm waiting for more intelligent articles/analyses by you and Richard.

Greetings
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Suchender,

Thanks very much for the appreciation.

We had a debate on The Holocaust issue in this forum, at the link below. I do my best to present a case that Hitler was indeed genocidal towards the Jews (including innocent ones) and that the Official Story on the WWII death camps is more or less correct. But I acknowledge that the evidence isn't as solid as it's portrayed by the mass media, and that people of good will can disagree about this.

https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/belief-in-the-holocaust-is-enormously-more-important-than-the-christian-religion.1337/
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
So are the Ukraininan Nazis for the EU or not?
Once again relying on Wikipedia for a baseline narrative, they say that the Ukraine Nazis did sign an association agreement with the EU. But they are not qualified to join the EU as a full member nation, because of their poor economic and social condition.
The wording of my question wasn't meant to imply that all pro-EU Ukrainians are Nazis, but your reply seems to go along with this approach. Is this what you meant?

Thank you for the wonderful work on this site !
I'm waiting for more intelligent articles/analyses by you and Richard.
Thx

Rather than dilly-dallying around on Facebook and such, Jerry is really supposed to be helping me to verify some relatively recent scientific research, that if true, will help tell us about what I think may have been (and still be) the real agenda of not only the Nazis, but those elites who created all our major religions today, and such as the prior mystery cults and the 'pagan' myths before that. It would provide a coherent reason for why such as the Catholic Church aided the Nazis (despite their denials), because the Third Reich had the same esoteric understandings as that of the First Reich.
 
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