Postflavians Confront Anti-Semitism and Anti-Judaism

[Jerry Russell]

Hello Loren,

First of all, let me say that I'm very encouraged by your remark above "Jewish is not a race in my opinion." So your quote from Wikipedia says that Jews are an ethno-religious group. I might say that there seem to be several Jewish ethno-religious groups, including most notably the Ashkenazi.

Can a Jew be blonde with blue eyes? I think that's a 'yes', which goes to our point. This whole Jew vs. Gentile thing is a false construct.

Could any random Christian be a secret Jew, or be suspected of such because some more or less distant ancestor of theirs was a blonde blue-eyed Jew? I suppose so, but without any evidence, it just makes you look like an anti-semitic racist to worry about it.

Per your request, I am going to lightly edit the above posts to remove ad hominems, and focus on the issues.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Loren is the one who dragged Hitler into the thread claiming that because I don't "read his books" that I can't possibly have an understanding of the subject. The only thing that is correct here is that I do not read Hitler's "books".

Loren, please point out where I have stated that "the big boys bankers IBM standard oil, in London And USA. Didn't back all sides of ww2. And hitler was not there man ..." or where I have ever implied this.

If you think that your contributions will help gain Caesar's Messiah, or any other matter around here gain credibility, then you are mistaken. On the contrary, any serious person, upon reading your posts, will worry that we are not logical thinkers, collectively. We already have a large enough burden to overcome.

It seems to me that you drag such as Hitler (in this case incorrectly), David Duke, and similar into the conversations because you quite clearly are not happy with Jerry's and my analysis that conflicts with your traditionalist agenda. Whether you intend it or not, this has the effect of poisoning our well, and forces us to spend time cleaning our kitchen.

And now that I've called you on all this once more, you now are claiming that you understand that Jews have a wider gene pool. But, in defending yourself in this way you are undermining the 'genetic Jews did it' position.

In all honesty, I would be delighted if you found somewhere else to post.

[lightly edited to conform with site rules - ed.]

 

[lorenhough]

PODCAST, UNSPUN ON CCN
CCN – UnSpun 019 – “MKULTRA: From the Frankfurt School to the AJC” – with Jan Irvin & Joe Atwill
April 21, 2016 • 10 Comments

Aired April 19-20, 2016. Joe Atwill and Jan Irvin discuss Joe's latest research connecting the Frankfurt School to the American Jewish Committee, then to the Macy Foundation and directly into MKULTRA





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50 Jewish Messiahs: The Untold Life Stories of 50 ... - Amazon.com
Amazon.com › Books › History › World
Buy 50 Jewish Messiahs: The Untold Life Stories of 50 Jewish Messiahs Since Jesus and How They Changed ... 50 Jewish Messiahs available for Amazon Kindle.

Cut and paste from Amazon

It is a little known fact that there have been more than fifty prominent Jewish Messiahs. These characters, though unrenowned today, inspired messianic fervour that at times seized the whole Jewish, Christian, Muslim and even secular worlds.

The stories of these fifty Messiahs, both male and female, are unknown -- suppressed by Jewish religious authorities or ignored by historians of all religions. Until now. In this book, these Jewish Messiahs are remembered, and now their forgotten stories -- whether humorous, bizarre, tragic or solemn -- are finally told. The Messiah who killed the Pope; The Messiah who was saved from the Inquisition when the Pope hid him in the Vatican; The Messiah who demanded that his head be cut off in order to prove his immortality The Messiah who defied the Holy Roman Emperor; The 17th century Messiah whose followers continued their secret society into the 20th century. And to contemporary times and the story of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, and how he inspired a passionate and devoted following.

the Author
Jerry Rabow, a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Law School, practiced law for 35 years in Los Angeles, where he lectured and wrote extensively on estate planning and probate. He has been active for thirty years in various lay leadership positions with Valley Beth Shalom Synagogue in Encino, California. Jerry is the author of a nationally distributed booklet, Guide to Jewish Mourning and Condolence;, and currently attends lectures and classes in Judaica at UCLA and the University of Judaism. His hobbies include Jewish papercutting and digital photography.

Part of reviews on Amazon


And so, some sixty years after the destruction of the Temple, in 132 CE, when the Jews were suffering because of the horrid six decade persecutions of the Romans, many Jews, including the famous Rabbi Akiva, decided to rebel against the Romans. Rabbi Akiva assured the people that their military leader, Bar Kokhba, was the long awaited messiah who would deliver them. Rabow tells about the failure of this first messiah and the tens of thousands of people who died relying on his false dream. He also tells of some four dozen other messiahs that followed because the people did not learn from this first experience.

The stories that Rabow relates are real history, tragic and pathetic periods when people relied on the supernatural instead of reality.

Beside Bar Kokhba, the most famous messiah was Shabbatai Zevi who persuaded millions, including many rabbis, to believe in him, sell their property for cheap prices, and be ready to leave with him to live in peace in Israel. Shabbatai Zevi failed and was forced to convert to Islam in 1666, but many of his followers were convinced that it was a fake conversion and he would fulfill his promise. When he died, many thought he would return from the grave.

From book. 1666 redemption in sin

After Sabbati Zevi’s death in 1676, his philosophy would be continued, and expanded on, by his Kabbalist successor Jacob Frank. Frankism, a religious movement of the 18th and 19th centuries, centered on the leadership of the Messiah claimant Jacob Frank.

*******He, like Zevi, would perform strange acts that violated traditional religious taboos, such as eating fats that were forbidden by Jewish dietary laws, ritual sacrifice, promoting orgies and sexual immorality. Jacob Frank would eventually enter into an alliance formed by Adam Weishaupt and Meyer Amshel Rothschild called the Order of the Illuminati. ******

The objectives of this organization was to undermine the world’s religions and power structures, in an effort to usher in a utopian era of global communism covertly ruled by their hidden hand: the New World Order. Using secret societies, such as the Freemasons, their agenda has played itself out over the centuries, staying true to the script. Opposition is handled by a near total control of the world’s media, academic opinion leaders, politicians and finance. While still considered a conspiracy theory to many, more people are waking up each day to the reality that this is not just a theory, but a true conspiracy.


Also

Authoritarian Personality: book from Amazon cut and paste

The Authoritarian Personality (Studies in Prejudice) November, 1993
by Theodor W. Adorno & 3 more

Adorne, leading figure of the Frankfurt school of critical theory. He authored more than twenty volumes, including "Negative Dialectics" (1982), "Kierkegaard" (Minnesota, 1989), "Dialectic of Enlightenment" (1975) with Max Horkheimer, and "Aesthetic Theory" (Minnesota, 1997).

Bringing together the findings of psychoanalysis and social science, this book grew out of an urgent commitment to study the origins of anti-Semitism in the aftermath of Hitler's Germany. First published in 1951, it was greeted as a monumental study blazing new trails in the investigation of prejudice. As offshoots of ethnocentrism, anti-semitism and fascism cast new and dark shadows on the world, the topic again demands study and social action. "The Authoritarian Personality" remains an important document for our time.

A Amazon Review

1.0 out of 5 starsBiased and obsolete.
By Matt Arische on March 5, 2016
Format: Paperback
Just nonsense. Long debunked trash that seeks to pathologize healthy moral sentiments in gentile society. Written by Marxist Jews with an axe to grind after the disaster of the second world war. Unless you want to understand the mindset of people in the ADL or SPLC, don't bother.

Also Joe and jerry had podcast on the book,
April 4: Authoritarian Personality
Jerry Russell, Apr 10, 2016, on this site. Here is form on it.

 

[Joe Atwill]

Richard

Please explain what you see as my 'genetic Jews did it' position.

 

[Joe Atwill]

Jerry

Richard complains that positions other than his may be unacceptable because they force him to "spend time cleaning his kitchen". How is this different than refusing to engage in discussion?

 

[Jerry Russell]

Richard complains that positions other than his may be unacceptable because they force him to "spend time cleaning his kitchen". How is this different than refusing to engage in discussion?

Good morning Joe,

You might not be fully aware of what's been going on behind the scenes here. On multiple occasions, Loren has launched ad hominem attacks against Richard and myself; Richard has responded with very eloquent rebuttals which have also contained ad hominems; and I've had to go through both Loren and Richard's posts to try to keep the actual content of the discussion, while making it compliant with the site rules. Also, I've frequently had to edit Loren's posts, if for no other reason than to delineate his own materials from cut & paste items often posted without attribution.

Loren also frequently starts new threads on topics closely related to matters that have already been discussed. I've been consolidating those threads so that readers can easily find our responses.

We do have a goal here of building congregation, as well as promoting free discussion. I believe Loren is a well-meaning individual, and furthermore he's made many posts here which I've found fascinating and highly useful. So I've resisted Richard's recommendation that we simply ban Loren's account. Loren, on his part, has given me authorization to edit his materials as I see fit; but that takes a lot of time, and sometimes I get objections from Loren when I edit or consolidate his materials. So, it's an ongoing tense situation.

The above post by Loren is a case in point. He posted it in a new thread when it seems to be a direct response to the conversation here, so I had to move it into this thread. It includes links to the podcasts on Frankfurt school; I am surmising that Loren means for us to review those podcasts to get your perspective on this question of Jews vs. Gentiles. But along with those two pertinent links, Loren's post includes a long digression about 50 Jewish messiahs, before getting to some sort of point about Shabattai Zevi being related to the Illuminati. He also throws in a link to Adorno's book, and a review by Matt Arische denouncing it as "Long debunked trash."

So what am I supposed to do with this? If I leave it in place, then everyone who visits this thread has to work their way through all this irrelevant cut-and-paste material to get to the point; if I delete it, I am not only spending time "cleaning the kitchen", I am also at risk of being accused of refusing to engage in discussion. And, all appeals to Loren to regulate his own behavior have failed.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Loren does have super annoyingly incoherent posts which often derail interesting topics. I browse the forums via the 'New Posts' section and have to wade through them by first looking at the author to make sure I don't stumble on his post.
At least put some effort into it instead of copying and pasting random bits.

Perhaps limiting the amount of new threads he can create per month?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Hi Joe,

Please explain what you see as my 'genetic Jews did it' position.

As far as I know you don't engage much here on the forum, and so I am forced to let Loren act as your virtual oracle. From which he can hide behind his manifest contradictions, all of which permit him to proclaim that he is being unfairly criticized and victimized, because he can always point to a contrary position that he has taken against himself as proof that he is not what one is complaining about. This not to mention his spam posting style, and other problems, which makes it difficult and time consuming to wade through and reply to. I see Loren as your oracle, because for one thing, I am aware of your back channel communications, and two, he is always crowing about his devotional support for you while fighting Jerry and/or me.

If I have gained a wrong impression of your genetics position, perhaps you need to provide myself and others better context for understanding it. Out of my frustration to understand what everyone is talking about as "cultural degradation" and wanting to know exactly what it is that we are being degraded away from I felt the need to create the last front page article. From this, there is a discussion page which some have replied to, one of whom has quickly become apoplectic over the definition of what a White Man is, insisting that we conform to some legal definition which he wont provide us.

So in this regard, and pertaining to your question, you insist that the likes of Winston Churchill and FDR are Jews. OK, fair enough. Maybe the popes are Jews, and the Caesars. Maybe I am, but at least I can claim an 'out', like Loren does with his handicaps, because I am adopted. But I'm still a little insecure even with my blue eyes and blond hair.

For me, the big problem here is that perception becomes virtual reality. We have a large percentage of paranoid Race Nationalists participating here and they are unhappy with Jerry's and my suspect position. Fine, that's what the forum is about. I feel compelled to engage with them when they comment, because I feel that silence (especially on these matters) is indeed consent, and my name is attached to all this. I do not want to be Delphied, as the famous WebFairy once said. So far, no one has managed to convince me of why I am wrong. Some people are able to well articulate their positions and engage in civil dialog, but many of the critics either engage in hiding behind vapid labels and the surety of their FU philosophical grounding in lieu of explaining what is wrong with my viewpoint. And then there is Loren, with his Primitive Revival and such.

I find it interesting that he has Nurse Rachited up the Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew focus upon his return from self-imposed Exile (sounds like Jewish Victimology to me - or is that Krypto-Kristian Victimology). This as it became clear that Jerry and I are exposing, in detail, the true nature of Judaism's relationship to the real power structure. This seems to become his agenda, as it is no secret that I asked him to provide context for his anti-Jewish posts, especially when he starts his adulation for the likes of leaders of the KKK, or the KKKK. That he has claimed just recently, on this thread that I wont read Hitler's "books" and David Duke's and therefore don't understand anything is rather rich. And that I deny that the oligarchs (apparently all Jewish) DO NOT control both side is equally specious. Based upon all that I have written here, I think this clearly shows that he is up to no good.

Contrary to Jerry's generous characterization of Loren, I see Loren as an agent provocateur. Hiding behind his bufoonish klutz persona, he plants a lot of material here, much of which is indeed interesting. That is the whole point of his craftwork. Perhaps this is why he was a frollicking hippy, because he was busy spreading the MKULTRA agenda, and now, because his mission has changed, he wants to disavow his actions as having been a victim of others. I fully accept that his relatively recent marijuana theft claim is bogus, but maybe this story, like the drug busts, is all just part of spookcraft legend making?

But let's assume that I am wrong, .... about everything. He claims to want more exposure for such as Caesar's Messiah. As such, if I was a dispassionate serious person coming on this site to see what is going on in regards to CM, no matter what the merit of other content that is discussed here, by Loren or anyone else - including sometimes me, I would likely run away from this as fast as possible. In fact, there is relatively little discussion here about CM, with myself mentioning it the most often, I am guessing. Too many viewers running away from the first viewed page? This seems to show what our web stats reveal, as far as I can tell. If I limit myself to just Loren here, as the most prolific poster by far, the zeitgeist is that of an irrational purple haze of babbling Fear Porn. He is Erichtho the night witch.

Let's say that I was part of the power cabal and I was worried about what Joe, Jerry, and Richard are revealing. Well, then I would take some measures to marginalize their message, and I would employ such techniques as Loren uses to obscure the substance, and waste the time of those that don't want to be smeared. False (c)ollectivist made this agenda even more blatant, by his sneaking into his Greek economic analysis the issue of ritual Jewish child killing.

Like you have told me before, I have no notion that any of this is anything but an intellectual investigation into the workings of power, and that even if publicly available that it might make even a small dent in changing any outcome for the better is dubious. If for no other reason than the petulant fear that people have about abandoning the culture that was cuckholded into their minds from birth.

So, beyond my also different notion of the org chart of secret and overt societies viz-a-viz Jews writ narrow, just what is your "genetic position" on them as I might wrongly think based upon the zeitgeist I perceive?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Loren does have super annoyingly incoherent posts which often derail interesting topics. I browse the forums via the 'New Posts' section and have to wade through them by first looking at the author to make sure I don't stumble on his post.
At least put some effort into it instead of copying and pasting random bits.

Perhaps limiting the amount of new threads he can create per month?

Thanks.

I used to try to comprehend his posts and have figured its better time spent ignoring them. But then, as you say, he derails discussion with this technique. And worse he paints me (and all of us), by association, with the priority subtext of it. Which is ironically pushing the same dialectic message of the traditionalist Catholic mainstream that he claims to decry, by his support of Caesar's Messiah. And now, he is starting to reveal that he is indeed cockeyed traditionalist in all significant respects. Since Jesus is naturally wearing off as a control mechanism, there is no big deal anymore in this expose. But what is more important is maintaining the impression that the institutional sheepdogs are really the evil shepherds. Jerry and I have explained to him our concerns, and it is OK for him to disagree with our conclusions, but his tactic is to leave for a few months and then come back ever more determined to continue with the same approach.

Limiting his posts is a possibly good idea. I've also suggested giving him his own sandbox, from which we can apply our own lengthy disclaimer statement. But he has claimed that he wants to start his own web site twice. He already has one dedicated to nuclear radiation dangers, but nobody except Jerry posts comments there. So why can't he just follow through on his threat? If he does then he can't spend as much time drowning us in our well. (Jerry won't allow us to use the expression "poison the well" for some reason. )

 

[Jerry Russell]

As far as I know you don't engage much here on the forum, and so I am forced to let Loren act as your virtual oracle.

Just because Loren purports to be Joe's oracle, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. But you've acknowledged that, with the following question:

So, beyond my also different notion of the org chart of secret and overt societies viz-a-viz Jews writ narrow, just what is your "genetic position" on them as I might wrongly think based upon the zeitgeist I perceive?

I too would appreciate a clarification from Joe. I do know he's repeatedly called for genetic testing of the elite, to discover if there's some 'ethnicity' involved in the problematic behavior we're discussing. I feel that this needs to be fleshed out: what sort of 'ethnicity' does he believe we might discover, and what is the basis for demanding this program? Would Joe want to encourage voters to base their decisions not on a candidate's political stance, their history, or their character, but on their ethnicity and genetics?

I have supported the idea of DNA testing on a scientific basis, because I'm curious about how much inbreeding still persists in the upper classes; but I'm convinced beyond any reasonable doubt, that the elite are not exclusively or even predominantly Ashkenazi Jews. And now I find myself wondering if I've made a big mistake in offering such support for DNA testing, because of the potential that the results could be misinterpreted or misused.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Please explain what you see as my 'genetic Jews did it' position.

I have written approximately 50,000 words here detailing my position of the issue, and am not done yet. And this includes significant discussion of the traditional Catholic, theologically based position from the time of Augustine till John XXIII's admission that he is the 'Joseph' of the Jews, per the Genesis schema.

Richard complains that positions other than his may be unacceptable because they force him to "spend time cleaning his kitchen". How is this different than refusing to engage in discussion?

"How is this different than refusing to engage in discussion, you say?" I don't consider the Oracle of Kansas's take with my detailed positions as being irrelevant, because they don't align with traditional Catholic or neo-Catholic positions (as I understand it), as constituting a discussion. I do not consider ignoring of uncomfortable facts, especially by zombie robot oracles, as constituting "discussion".

What is somewhat irrelevant in the distinction between models is whether or not some people that identify as Jews play a role in the germain matters. In my model this participation is accounted for, with an important distinction. That said, if some particular individual, Jew or not, questions the power structure and as to whether or not certain people are favored over others within that system, then I do not think that summarily labeling these people as servants to some nefarious plot of the 'oligarchs' to degrade culture cuts the mustard. It is the gentil oligarchs that create the critical culture from the top down, as evidenced by the Abrahamic religions. So they, as the composite Lord, upgrade and degrade culture as they see fit, and with the agents they choose to use as veiling fronts.

How does this compare to your view?

 

[Jerry Russell]

CCN Unspun #19 "MK-Ultra: From the Frankfurt School to the AJC" (linked above in Loren's post) contains an a description of a "trajectory" leading all the way from Shakespeare, through the Frankfurt school, to MK-Ultra and the creation of the counter culture. My description below is from memory: if I have misstated anyone's position, please let's correct this summary below; I'm doing the best I can to accurately represent what I heard on the podcast.

Basically, Joe states that the earliest manifestation of the conspiracy is found in Shakespeare's Tempest, in which the prophesies of Isaiah are reenacted. That is, the Gentiles are placed into a dream state by the Jews, and then they are destroyed. The dream state is described as the "Brave New World". Joe goes on to note that in the novel "Brave New World", Aldous Huxley described the inducement of this same dream state through the use of psychoactive drugs. Irvin's research indicates that Huxley went on to become a primary organizer of MK-Ultra.

Joe traces the origin of the Frankfurt School to Georg Lukacs, a Hungarian communist philosopher, who is claimed to have founded the institute with financial support from the Comintern. It is claimed that the Frankfurt School invented the scheme of Cultural Marxism, which is seen as promoting fragmentation of society into various ethnic groups, sexual identity groups, and so forth, at the expense of undermining and attacking Gentile culture.

In 1934, the Institute for Social Research (institutional identity of the Frankfurt School) moved to Columbia University in New York. Joe claims that in its move to America, the Frankfurt School received major funding from the American Jewish Committee. Under the leadership of Max Horkheimer and Theodor Adorno, the Frankfurt School became famous for its study of the "Authoritarian Personality". Under the guise of seeking to prevent a resurgence of Neo-Nazi fascism, Joe claims that this study actually proclaimed a plan that to further undermine and ultimately destroy Gentile culture. Jan Irvin noted that although Horkheimer & Adorno created an "anti-Semitic scale", they did not create a complementary "anti-Gentile" scale. Joe and Jan seem to agree that the Frankfurt school consists of Jewish intellectuals with a strong identity as such, seeking to undermine Gentile culture.

Joe and Jan argue that the Frankfurt School's concern to prevent a recurrence of the Holocaust was basically a sham argument, because the Frankfurt school had been founded much earlier, in the 1920's, with the same agenda. The concept that the Holocaust was itself some sort of sham was mentioned briefly by Jan, and dismissed by Joe as a topic to be explored in more detail. However, they mentioned that the Gentiles have also suffered a genocide, with some 200 million killed.

In 1951, the ISR moved back to Frankfurt. However, many of the participants chose to remain in the USA, where they found new positions. Joe claims that the Frankfurt school members went on to become important or dominant influences at the Macy Conferences, and at MK-Ultra.

We also did a podcast on this topic for our Revolution Radio on April 4. It covered much of the same material, but I expressed some of my concerns about the "trajectory" Joe is describing. Here are some points where I don't share the same viewpoint --

1) I feel that the revenge Shakespeare is describing in the Tempest is being directed against the nobility, as the beneficiaries and heirs of the Flavian invention of Christianity. I don't see Shakespeare as having an agenda to commit genocide against the entire European population.

2) Aldous Huxley is a rather enigmatic character. I don't feel I know enough about him to reach any conclusions about his true motivations, but I don't see any evidence that he's Jewish, or affiliated in any way with the Frankfurt School.

3) According to the conventional story, Lukacs was kicked out of the Comintern before he became involved with the ISR, and his involvement with them was limited to just one conference. The ISR got its initial funding from Felix Weil, who was undoubtedly a Marxist, but not linked especially to the Comintern. The Frankfurt School quickly distanced itself from Soviet Communism. I wouldn't want to naively insist that the official story is the entire truth, but it seems to be pretty well sourced; whereas the idea that the funding came from the Comintern and that Lukacs was the founder seems to be speculation from the Larouche team, with no evidence offered.

4) The plan called for in Adorno's "Authoritarian Personality" had nothing to do with creating drug counterculture or a primitive revival. It was rather poorly defined, but more along the lines of improving the public education system, and promoting family stability.

5) The Jewish Holocaust is every bit as real as what Joe and Jan are calling the Gentile Holocaust. The Jews undoubtedly suffered huge losses in WWII, and so did the German, Russian, Polish, Chinese, Japanese and every other nationality. (Are Chinese and Japanese 'Gentiles'? I'm not sure if Joe and Jan are using the term in that general sense, or whether they just mean Caucasians of European descent.) But I don't understand where the number '200 million' comes from; most estimates of WWII casualties are more on the order of 60 to 80 million, which is plenty bad enough.

6) The ISR at Columbia got its funding from a diversity of sources, including the AJC but also many others. I don't have much detail about this.

7) Following 1951, the members of the Frankfurt School need to be individually traced. I have the impression that most of them went on to academic appointments. Max Horkheimer attended some of the Macy Conferences, but this hardly says that the Frankfurt School was a dominant influence. These conferences were mainly about cybernetics, and Weiner and Von Neumann are usually thought of as the prime movers. I'm not even sure which Frankfurt School scholars allegedly joined MK-Ultra, but again, they don't seem like the dominant influence. Usually in Joe & Jan's commentary, the dominant figures are named as Aldous Huxley, Gregory Bateson, Gordon Wasson, Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey. None of those were Jewish, nor affiliated with the Frankfurt school, nor have any reputation as Cultural Marxists.

 

[Joe Atwill]

Hi Jer

Point One – If the Tempest is directed against the nobility why does it use Isaiah 29 as its basis?


Point Two - Huxley is directly connected into MK Ultra.


Four. - Nonsense. Read the words. It calls for reprogramming Gentiles on a mass scale


Point 5. - Pile of bodies not big enough? Combine the Ukrainian holodomor and WWI


3 & 6 – I don’t know either.


7 - Agreed. We need to start tracing the individuals and their relationships from Frankfurt School, AJC, the Macy Conference and into MK Ultra.


Joe

 

[Jerry Russell]

Hi Joe,

Replying to the points where the conversation isn't at a conclusion:

1) Shakespeare may chosen to create a typological link to Isaiah as a representation of the victory of good over evil, or of the righteous over the wicked, or truth against falsehood. He might not have been thinking of it as a tribal, nationalist conquest of Jews over Goyim, even though this might have been Isaiah's true intent. I have an article in the works regarding Tempest (consisting of materials cut from the original article), maybe it's time for me to finish it and get it posted.

2) Agreed that Huxley was directly connected to MK Ultra. With all the evidence presented, it seems pretty likely to me that he was part of the institutional core. But, that doesn't constitute proof of what his personal agenda was, in his choice to affiliate himself with the group. He may have seen it as an opportunity to exploit government funding to achieve his own ends.

In Gordon Wasson's case, it really seems pretty clear that this was a guy who would do any unscrupulous thing to keep those bank paychecks flowing. Characters like Huxley and Kesey are going to be much tougher to nail to that cross, at least in a way that's going to be convincing to a majority of readers.

I'm not saying you should give up, though. I say they should've been called in for questioning, while they were still alive. Since that's no longer possible, I have no objection to keeping the pressure on.

3) I think the statement you're referring to is this:

Techniques for overcoming resistance, developed mainly in the field of individual psychotherapy, can be improved and adapted for use with groups and even for use on a mass scale.

But that has to be taken in context of remarks like this:

Confronted with the rigidity of the adult ethnocentrist, one turns naturally to the question of whether the prospects for healthy personality structure would not be greater if the proper influences were brought to bear earlier in the individual's life, and since the earlier the influence the more profound it will be, attention becomes focused upon child training. It would not be difficult, on the basis of the clinical and genetic studies reported in this volume, to propose a program which, even in the present cultural pattern, could produce nonethnocentric personalities. All that is really essential is that children be genuinely loved and treated as individual humans.

This is why I say that their primary recommended tactic was to improve education, childrearing and the family.

And this, where Adorno et al. basically admit they don't know how to achieve their goals, but they give a fairly explicit rejection of "devices of manipulation":

It seems obvious therefore that the modification of the potentially fascist structure cannot be achieved by psychological means alone. The task is com- parable to that of eliminating neurosis, or delinquency, or nationalism from the world. These are products of the total organization of society and are to be changed only as that society is changed. It is not for the psychologist to say how such changes are to be brought about. The problem is one which requires the efforts of all social scientists. All that we would insist upon is that in the councils or round tables where the problem is considered and action planned the psychologist should have a voice. We believe that the scientific understanding of society must include an understanding of what it does to people, and that it is possible to have social reforms, even broad and sweeping ones, which though desirable in their own right would not necessarily change the structure of the prejudiced personality. For the fascist potential to change, or even to be held in check, there must be an increase in people's capacity to see themselves and to be themselves. This cannot be achieved by the manipulation of people, however well grounded in modern psychology the devices of manipulation might be; and it is a judgment which finds support in the present study that the man who is first to seize power will be the last to give it up.

Based on these sorts of statements, as well as my general sense of Adorno & Horkheimer from reading Dialectic of Enlightenment, I really don't think it's fair to characterize them as overtly calling for creation of a program like MK-Ultra. On the contrary, if their books describe their opinions, they would have been horrified at any suggestion to use an MK-Ultra program to fix the problems described in "Authoritarian Personality". I suppose it's possible they might be "lifetime actors", but what's the evidence?

5) Even including Ukraine & WWI, I can only come up with ~100 million. But that's more than enough to make your point.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Point One – If the Tempest is directed against the nobility why does it use Isaiah 29 as its basis?

If everyone stipulates that we are talking about a global consolidation plan, as explicitly expressed in the OT, the NT, and the Roman corpus, and including the aims of Alexander (again red hair from his mother's side at least), then one has to look at the term goyim. You noted this term and correctly noted that it means 'nation', as it seems to be most commonly translated as. Is that accurate I don't know, but if we accept that premise, then the correct focus of the OT usage is that of achieving a global consolidation by destroying the construct of a nation (and thus nations), and not so much on the people that make up a respective nation.

In this sense I would agree with you that Jerry's take on this point is misguided. So now as I see it, in our model the authorship and general intent of the Shakespearean corpus is that of a propagandic statement of the Tudor's and their sponsors that they desire to continue the biblical program of destroying nations with the end game of a one world governance. In this light, if Bassano and friends were involved, then they are operating under the shepherd and sheepdog framework. And in my interpretation of terms she would be a Jewish Gentile, or better perhaps a gentil Jew, same difference.

Four. - Nonsense. Read the words. It calls for reprogramming Gentiles on a mass scale

Would you accept the premise that the imposition of ~600 Mosaic laws that invert traditional pagan culture is a supreme example of cultural engineering? BTW, I owe this insight to your making much of the issue of cultural degradation in general, the subsequent work of our post on the matter, and discussion with Vin about the post and Le Bon on the forum.

If you can accept this, then what does this imply? Did a group of JEWS decide to impose this upon just who? It's very imposition more than implies that the Hebrew/Jews were pagans to begin with, and the OT pretty much admits as much. So then where does the impetus really come from? The Bible tells you so and De Vere reiterated this in his own fashion.

If all is vanity, how much of that is culture, ... and not so much genetics? Albeit, De Vere does indeed claim that his red headed, green eyed clan is the supreme and uniquely distinct genetic strain, and emphatically denies that the Jews run the stage. How about that ~3,000 year old red headed, white noble woman found buried in Eastern China?

Is the entity known as Solomon, of which there is zero evidence described in terms as pharaoh, or as a kind of backwater tribal chief?

 

[Joe Atwill]

Jer

I am calling for an investigation into the relationship between the Frankfurt School, AJC, Macy Conference, OSS and MK Ultra. This is absolutely neccessary because of the similarities between the AJC's calling for a mass scale reprograming and the mass scale reprograming actually acomplished by MK Ultra. Not only are the programs parallel, but many individuals had connections into the overlapping organizations. Just off the top of my head I created list below.

Surely no one at PostFlaviana is afraid of a research project?

Marie Jahoda AJC/ her husband was Paul Lazerfield/Macy/ Princeton Radio Project with Horkmeier

Daniel Levison AJC/cited in MK Ultra documents

Eric Fromm Frankfurt School/MK Ultra

Horkmeir Frankfurt/AJC/Macy Conference Attendee

Nevitt Stanford was AJC/SRI /MK ultra

Marcuse/ Frankfurt/ OSS

Adorno AJC/Tavistock

Franz Neumann Frankfurt School/OSS

Dr. William Morrow, Macy/AJC protégé of Dr. Kurt Lewin

 

[Richard Stanley]

Surely no one at PostFlaviana is afraid of a research project?

I'm certainly glad that Jerry is refusing to redact anything like this, that is, since his new experimental policy announcement from yesterday.

I thought you also wanted a front page post concisely comparing your Minimalist Jew Model (MJM) versus our Shepherd and Sheepdog Model (SSM)? If this is still the case, I am in full support of this.

I also think that we should collect some hard data from LSD users about how this degraded them or vice-versa. Jerry could assemble the data into a nice spreadsheet analysis like he did with his famous Pentagon Eyewitness Analysis. We could divide data into being self-reporting or not, etc.. I already have collected my first user data sample. So far, you and Jerry are losing this battle one to nothing.

But that said, I think that we need to agree on what the cultural baseline criteria is, as I have repeatedly asked for someone to clarify. I couldn't even get Allan to do so. Here I suggest delineating Good (and Optimal) Culture, in all of its relevant aspects, as a front page post for you, since this whole approach is your baby.

Would you guess that the imposition of the culturally inverted Mosaic Laws on a previously typical pagan culture, whenever in time that it happened, might affect that group's behavioral attitudes, quite possibly much more than genetics? Jerry guesses that you might consider the whole issue as irrelevant to what is happening today, which, if true, raises a number of questions. One of which is that Postmodernists, if I understand them correctly, posit that no group of humans, even if related, can continue an ideological driven program beyond 3 human generations.

From my limited understanding of Adorno, I understand that his book on authoritarianism is part of a larger critique of the same, by others. My understanding of traditional Catholic culture, as opposed somewhat to say, deviant liberalized American Catholicism, is highly authoritarian in nature. That is, the ingrained cultural requirement to heed one's Respected Lifetime Auctor (I couldn't resist). Is this your understanding as well? My experience in Spain, sitting next to one of Franco's former captains of the Guardia Civil, asking me about my politics seemed rather confirmatory of my understanding. Good thing I didn't have to tell him I was Republican.

I think we need a cui bono analysis project on the various attributes and connections of every secret society including distinguishing between the various branches of Masonry.

 

[Jerry Russell]

I'm certainly glad that Jerry is refusing to redact anything like this, that is, since his new experimental policy announcement from yesterday.

I see absolutely nothing here that isn't perfectly friendly conversation.

I thought you also wanted a front page post concisely comparing your Minimalist Jew Model (MJM) versus our Shepherd and Sheepdog Model (SSM)? If this is still the case, I am in full support of this.

Whereas I'm feeling a little reluctant to call front page attention to this highly nuanced discussion. I think we should discuss it here, at the quiet end of a long thread.

Not sure MJM is the best we can do for a name, but let's start by formulating the theory.

I think the model is that the inner core operators of the 'secret society' (including, at a minimum, the multinational and central bank owners, media moguls, presidents and top officials of the major Western democracies, heads of intelligence agencies, heads of major Abrahamic religions, and heads of Freemasons and similar secret societies) are predominantly either Jewish, crypto-Jewish, or somehow beholden to the Jews and Crypto-Jews.

The theory further holds that run-of-the-mill Jewish people (that is, middle or lower class) have no more idea than the rest of us, regarding the fact that this is going on; and that they certainly can't be held responsible.

Is that it in a nutshell?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Is that it in a nutshell?

As you seem to be responding to me, why do I have to always define Joe's position? Wouldn't it be more efficient if he stated his position at least in outline form? Especially since this is his proposed project, which I wholeheartedly support along with my own proposals.

Not sure MJM is the best we can do for a name, but let's start by formulating the theory.

When I first proposed the SSM to John Kaminski, he said (paraphrasing): "Oh yes, this is the traditional way it was, but that the sheepdogs had launched a successful coup, deposing the Romantic shepherds." Actually he stated it as: 'the tail was now wagging the dog.'

This makes me think back to how bummed John was when he came to the realization that baseball was a Masonic sport, with the square infield and compass curve of the outfield, the Little League emblem being the Mason's keystone, thus defining why Williamsport was its home, because Pennsylvania was the Keystone State. And the fact that his Jewish girlfriend had dumped his ecumenical heart was proof positive that he was correct about the Jews. John was from Baltimore, Romantically speaking, BTW.

Maybe it might be clever to rename the MJM as the Cuckoo Coup Model (CCM)? Coo Coup Ca Choo.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Oh No!! It's 60' 6" from pitcher's mound to home base! The Baseball is the All Seeing Eye at the center of the diamond!

The origins of baseball in America are shrouded in myth: Abner Doubleday might have had nothing to do with it; but if he did, he was President of the American Theosophical Society. And Alexander Cartwright, the next candidate offered up as true founder, was a Freemason; but apparently his foundational role is also mythical to some extent. One myth after another, nobody can tell a straight story, where have we seen this before?