Old Testament- False Dialectic-- Oh my

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
http://liveinchapelperilous.blogspot.com/2008/08/rainbow-road-to-oz-9-11-and-masonic.html

The above link is interesting, demonstrating some rather dramatic linkages between Disney's version of The Wizard of Oz, Masonry, and 9/11. I don't see any significant contradiction with my 9/11 analysis about Mithraic / Greek aspects, as I see all such organizations as just being different vehicles for essentially doing the same thing, all with common older roots. As I have been discussing the common heritage of Classical Greece with the 'real' Judaism (ala the Sabbah rabbi brothers and similar).
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Derek just finished a live interview with Russell Gmirkin and Dr. Price, discussing Gmirkin's thesis that the OT was composed and redacted late ... by the authors of the Septuagent. http://russellgmirkin.com/

This thesis is fairly compatible with our False Dialectic approach where we built upon Moses Hadas's work in his Hellenistic Culture, Fusion and Diffusion which demonstrated the massive commonalities between the Greek and Jewish narratives and various other cultural aspects. This albeit that Judaism is a massive cultural inversion (e.g. all the Mosaic Laws excepting the 10 Commandments), hence a contrived or false dialectic in our view. Hadas's view was that these commonalities, in light of the differences likely only indicated common source material. But this, in and of itself, doesn't preclude Gmirkin's approach IMHO.

The other potential hurdle is that raised by Cyrus H. Gordon in his works, where he discussed in detail the very accurate knowledge of the authors about cultural references and practices in society that had occurred long, long before their times. In this case, Gordon was using the more accepted dating of redaction around the Babylonian Exile period. Gmirkin claims that such hurdles as this are dealt with because of the LXX authors' access to the Library of Alexandria, which if as claimed, had as its mission to have a copy of every extent literary work of the day.


Plato and the Creation of the Hebrew Bible for the first time compares the ancient law collections of the Ancient Near East, the Greeks and the Pentateuch to determine the legal antecedents for the biblical laws. Following on from his 2006 work, Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus, Gmirkin takes up his theory that the Pentateuch was written around 270 BCE using Greek sources found at the Great Library of Alexandria, and applies this to an examination of the biblical law codes. A striking number of legal parallels are found between the Pentateuch and Athenian laws, and specifically with those found in Plato's Laws of ca. 350 BCE. Constitutional features in biblical law, Athenian law, and Plato's Laws also contain close correspondences. Several genres of biblical law, including the Decalogue, are shown to have striking parallels with Greek legal collections, and the synthesis of narrative and legal content is shown to be compatible with Greek literature.​
All this evidence points to direct influence from Greek writings, especially Plato's Laws, on the biblical legal tradition. Finally, it is argued that the creation of the Hebrew Bible took place according to the program found in Plato's Laws for creating a legally authorized national ethical literature, reinforcing the importance of this specific Greek text to the authors of the Torah and Hebrew Bible in the early Hellenistic Era. This study offers a fascinating analysis of the background to the Pentateuch, and will be of interest not only to biblical scholars, but also to students of Plato, ancient law, and Hellenistic literary traditions.​

In the interview, Berossus and Manetho are discussed, as well as Manetho's Osarseph in relation to Joseph, whom Josephus discussed as well. Moses is pondered as possibly being Akhenaton and rejected. But, the later fictional Moses could easily have been built using Akhenaton (or his brother) as a trope, just as Julius Caesar was the original trope for Jesus Christ ... and the funeral wax effigy of Julius hung upon a literal Roman tropaeum.

Such considerations bring new light upon what Philo of Alexandria (and Josephus) were really up to. As such, I say that all of this is supportive of our widest claims regarding a larger project, which is playing out yet today. Call it NeoHellenism if you will.

But, as well, our thesis (made stronger here) is in direct contrast to the traditional Catholic and contemporary cultural Catholic POV which is inherently built upon the False Dialectic. It is like where, similar to an ouroboros, one first sucks on their own cock and then crows to high Heaven about various others' innovative perversions, the Degradation of their romantic [sic] Western High Culture (never once engaging in honest discussion about what exactly is being degraded unless using selective contextual boundaries).
 
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Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
I like that one, Richard, uttered by Gmirkin at the end: "in the free market of ideas the best argument eventually wins". Unfortunately the free market of capitalism does NOT congrue with the free market of ideas.

I guess I'm very pro-Gmirkin now that I am familiar with his words, not having heard of him before. Also found on Junkipedia that he attended but did not graduate from Ambassador College - ground zero of Herbert Dubya Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. He has my deepest sympathies - and I am so happy to find someone who has used his miseducation in early life to learn to see further.

Yours faithfully
Claude
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
I did not see that about Gmirkin. One of Jerry and my heroes was J. Orlin Grabbe, a fellow AC alumni, and later literally wrote the university textbook on international finance, becoming an expert in exposing related crimes. He was a pioneer in digital currency and 'died' at the dawn of Bitcoin. In any case, his quixotic web site was an inspiration for Postflaviana, albeit we don't post as many girly pictures, these few solely due to Double Agent Orange. The motto for his site was Horace's "What forbids us to tell the truth, laughingly?"
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
This thesis is fairly compatible with our False Dialectic approach where we built upon Moses Hadas's work in his Hellenistic Culture, Fusion and Diffusion which demonstrated the massive commonalities between the Greek and Jewish narratives and various other cultural aspects. This albeit that Judaism is a massive cultural inversion (e.g. all the Mosaic Laws excepting the 10 Commandments), hence a contrived or false dialectic in our view. Hadas's view was that these commonalities, in light of the differences likely only indicated common source material. But this, in and of itself, doesn't preclude Gmirkin's approach IMHO.

The other potential hurdle is that raised by Cyrus H. Gordon in his works, where he discussed in detail the very accurate knowledge of the authors about cultural references and practices in society that had occurred long, long before their times. In this case, Gordon was using the more accepted dating of redaction around the Babylonian Exile period. Gmirkin claims that such hurdles as this are dealt with because of the LXX authors' access to the Library of Alexandria, which if as claimed, had as its mission to have a copy of every extent literary work of the day.
I forgot to add another possible problem to address is the issue of the significant translation problems between the LXX and the Masoretic, which Derek had recently discussed with Rabbi Tovia Singer. Of course, as they discussed, the LXX is very fragmented and appears cobled together (or redacted?) over time, so perhaps it diverged over time? And are such differences reflective of socio-political considerations? Jerry just suggested to me that perhaps the differences reflect different respective source materials. Or, perhaps the same source materials yet diferrent redactional biases?
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Yes, and he did some amazing things. He wrote some interesting material, such as: When Osama Bin Laden was Tim Osman (an American covert asset), and started an interesting (unfinished?) work-in-progress novel discussing the infamous Crowlian, Jack Parsons, and Herbert W. Armstrong and the "Hoovas". He proposed a plan to launch an anonymous Internet assassination fund to target worthy political leaders ... to keep the others honest. :rolleyes:

All of which stems from the Old Testament and False Dialectic. Seriously.
 

Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
I remember the name 'Grabbe' in economic discussion - who wouldn't as it seems more appropriate than 'Gecko' - but I never knew...
Yes, and he did some amazing things. He wrote some interesting material, such as: When Osama Bin Laden was Tim Osman (an American covert asset), and started an interesting (unfinished?) work-in-progress novel discussing the infamous Crowlian, Jack Parsons, and Herbert W. Armstrong and the "Hoovas". He proposed a plan to launch an anonymous Internet assassination fund to target worthy political leaders ... to keep the others honest. :rolleyes:

All of which stems from the Old Testament and False Dialectic. Seriously.
...that like Gmirkin he attended Ambassador College. So good to find someone else who made good on it! Given the highlighted section in your quote, Richard, I was wondering whether he was actually murdered, though Junkipedia reveals that he had significant coronary artery disease. Remember that there are other suspiciously state-sponsored murders in the USA, not just Malcom X but Lincoln Rockwell too!

Yours faithfully
Claude
 

Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
Very funny Richard.
I thought you didn't believe Junkipedia.
But on an issue like that, concerning someone's health - and someone not particularly controversial, Junkipedia is probably accurate about simple factual material. In complete contrast, for someone whose date of death was faked for 1974 but who actually died in 1978, look up one Herbert Dingle on Junkipedia and peek a bit further to see what they done with him!:D

Yours faithfully
Claude

PS: He is quoted in Marcuse's One Dimensional Man but there his name is miswritten as 'Dingler'. And you're also right about the heretical ideas of 'rebel' Ambassador College graduates viz. "All of which stems from the Old Testament and False Dialectic. Seriously."
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
Herbert W. Armstrong
I remember reading stuff about him and his organization many years ago. He believed in the Saturday Sabbath, British Israelism, and tried to predict the year Christ would return. He also had detailed chronologies showing how some European countries originated after the Flood with the sons of Noah, and also showed that the heads of the beast were revivals of the Roman Empire, naming I believe Augustus, Constantine, Justinian, Charlemagne, Otto the Great, Charles Habsburg, Napoleon, Victor Emmanuel III (backed by Mussolini and Hitler), and a future United European Empire (but he skipped the Flavians in this list). He also believed the first Pope was actually Simon Magus, not Simon Peter, which is an example of the deception of the Roman Catholic Church. Of course later on came "the great schism" in his church, with the expulsion of his charismatic son Garner Ted Armstrong, and his movement splintered up from then on.
 
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
But on an issue like that, concerning someone's health - and someone not particularly controversial, Junkipedia is probably accurate about simple factual material.
I'm starting to think you're some kind of Einsteinian relativist. Not particularly controversial? A man who (correctly) claimed that ObL (and Al Qaeda) was (is) a covert American intelligence operative and suggested an anonymous assassination fund?

In any case, I wonder how hard it is to pay a Costa Rican doctor to certify that you died, and of a heart issue?

Herbert Dingle? I don't give a dingleberry for ol' Dingle. Maybe one for John Dingle.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Richard, with no intention of prying into your personal life, just making an observation based on past remarks that you have made on this site: In the late 60's and early 70's, when Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong were still together, and J. Orlin Grabbe was a student/teacher at Ambassador College, were you not living in the same county as that institution? Also, in that "unfinished" novel that J. Orlin Grabbe wrote about Jack Parsons, do you believe the person "investigating" the life of Parsons was fictional, or actually Grabbe himself, before he "disappeared"?
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
With the exception of some brief stints in Arizona and the Marshall Islands I have spent my entire life living in that county of the angels, however 2/3 of that bookended in the Bible thumping, hillbilly wilderness part.

I do not know about the extent of Grabbe's personal involvement in the novel's character as regards Parsons, but I did get the distinct feeling that he understood the novel's aspects involving the church from his first hand knowledge. Parsons was a Pasadena guy and there were links to L. Ron Hubbard as well, connecting them to Crowley and the American intel community.

Amazingly, Grabbe would post a new home page almost every day, with extensive eclectic links and commentary, art and girlie pictures. Ironically, my liberal city friends could not get past the girlie pics, that their hero, Bill Clinton, would consider tame. As Claude gnows, only such perversions are allowed for the anointed ones, e.g. Solomon. o_O
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
All of which stems from the Old Testament and False Dialectic. Seriously.
The Worldwide Church of God certainly stemmed from that, and J. Orlin Grabbe received a real education at Ambassador College, in what not to believe. His seven year "Tribulation" there was from (19)66 to (19)73, matching the Jewish War of 1900 years before, and he wrote that he really believed that he was living in the "End Times" then, and of course he had his "Apocalypse", just not in the way that he had originally expected. Ironically, he was born on Oct. 8, 1947, the day that Ambassador College opened, and there was also an Ambassador College in his home state of Texas.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
But on an issue like that, concerning someone's health - and someone not particularly controversial, Junkipedia is probably accurate about simple factual material.
Wikipedia rules say that each and every factual claim must be backed up by a citation to a "reputable source". Original research by editors is strictly forbidden, although it does creep in from time to time. I can tell you from personal experience, there is no debate about this among Wikipedia administrators, regardless of whether they are CIA or corporate or Zionist shills or not. Statements that can't be linked to an authority outside of Wikipedia can be stricken from the encyclopedia at any time, by anyone, with or without a registered username. And such actions are always upheld at Wikipedia star chambers, unless a source can be found.

And in general, most Wikipedia articles comply with this rule. Almost everything at the site can be traced to its source, and a readers can decide for themselves if the source is really "reliable" and has been accurately quoted.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Derek just finished a live interview with Russell Gmirkin and Dr. Price, discussing Gmirkin's thesis that the OT was composed and redacted late ... by the authors of the Septuagent. http://russellgmirkin.com/

This thesis is fairly compatible with our False Dialectic approach where we built upon Moses Hadas's work in his Hellenistic Culture, Fusion and Diffusion which demonstrated the massive commonalities between the Greek and Jewish narratives and various other cultural aspects.
Having finally made it through the video and/or transcript, I'm surprised at the view that this thesis is compatible with ours. The problem is that there's abundant archaeological evidence of Hebrew presence in Canaan, dating back to at least the time of Omri, approximately 884 BC. This includes inscriptions which are written in the same ancient language as old testament biblical Hebrew. And the material culture of this ancient civilization was basically derived from Egyptian models.

As we argued at some length in our article "The Aten Bomb: Cultural Fission and Fusion in Exodus", the Biblical narrative in the Pentateuch cannot be strictly historical. However, it appears to be an embellished re-framing of true events occurring during the time of Egypt's 18th dynasty, including the Hyksos eviction. And, the creation of Hebrew culture emerges as an Egyptian covert operation. Hebrew law is not derived from Greek law, but instead it is an inversion of Egyptian law, designed to make Hebrews into pariahs in the eyes of Egyptian citizens, and vice versa.

We have also suggested that the Mycenaean Danaoi culture was derived directly from the turmoil of those times, and founded by seafaring Canaanites or Phoenicians. This is supported by the Greek legend about the schism between Danaus and Aegyptus, in which Danaus departs from Hebrew territory in Egypt to settle in Argos.

If all of this is the case, then similarities between Plato and Biblical law would be because Plato's thought is derived from Hebrew or Egyptian law, and not vice versa.

It is impossible to trace the sources of the Masoretic Hebrew manuscripts, which generally date to the 7th century or later. Their contents are generally confirmed by the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts, thought to be produced between 250 BCE and 70 CE. However, there seems to be little reason to doubt that they were based on copies of traditional scripts that seem to reflect a redaction process which occurred after the Persian conquest of Palestine. This is, at any rate, the conventional view as explained by Wikipedia -- who also mention Gmirkin's alternate view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#Date_of_compilation

The final Torah is widely seen as a product of the Persian period (539–333 BCE, probably 450–350 BCE).[45] This consensus echoes a traditional Jewish view which gives Ezra, the leader of the Jewish community on its return from Babylon, a pivotal role in its promulgation.[46] Many theories have been advanced to explain the composition of the Torah, but two have been especially influential.[47] The first of these, Persian Imperial authorisation, advanced by Peter Frei in 1985, holds that the Persian authorities required the Jews of Jerusalem to present a single body of law as the price of local autonomy.[48] Frei's theory was demolished at an interdisciplinary symposium held in 2000, but the relationship between the Persian authorities and Jerusalem remains a crucial question.[49] The second theory, associated with Joel P. Weinberg and called the "Citizen-Temple Community", proposes that the Exodus story was composed to serve the needs of a post-exilic Jewish community organised around the Temple, which acted in effect as a bank for those who belonged to it.[50]
A minority of scholars would place the final formation of the Pentateuch somewhat later, in the Hellenistic (333–164 BCE) or even Hasmonean (140–37 BCE) periods.[51] Russell Gmirkin, for instance, argues for a Hellenistic dating on the basis that the Elephantine papyri, the records of a Jewish colony in Egypt dating from the last quarter of the 5th century BCE, make no reference to a written Torah, the Exodus, or to any other biblical event.[52]
I find it easy to see how the final composition of the Torah benefited the Persians, creating a monotheistic religion which was highly compatible with Zoroastrian perspectives, and creating a sense of national unity in Palestine that was fundamentally subordinate to Persian rule. And before that, it's also clear how the narrative supported covert Egyptian influence over the Hebrews.

It's not so easy to see how a major re-invention of this Hebrew literature by Alexandrian Greeks of the 3rd century BCE, could have served any geopolitical purpose.
 
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