Jesus predicting destruction upon the Galilean towns

gilius

Active Member
In a nutshell, Jesus prefigures Titus by:
1) Predicting The Galilean towns will be crushed
2) Predicting Jerusalem will be encircled with a wall
3) Predicting The Temple will be razed
Who else does this in history besides Titus Flavius?

Though the evidence for 2 and 3 is clear, it seems the only evidence for (1) is:
"Woe to the Impenitent Cities
Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”
?

Although the Romans do burn and destroy the Galilean towns it seems none of the above are mentioned specifically by name, so perhaps the only significance of that passage is to setup the joke about the Corachin fish?

More significantly Jesus seems to prefigure Titus by:
1) Visiting the same Galilean towns (and in mostly the same order)
2) Predicting Jerusalem will be encircled with a wall
3) Predicting The Temple will be razed
Who else does this in history besides Titus Flavius?

Any thoughts?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Could your proposition be stated this way?

Jesus prefigures Titus by:

1) Predicting that Galilean towns will be crushed
2) Visiting the same Galilean towns crushed by Titus (and in mostly the same order)
3) Predicting Jerusalem will be encircled with a wall
4) Predicting The Temple will be razed
 

gilius

Active Member
1) Predicting that Galilean towns will be crushed

Again, I just find this interpretation as being problematic. It doesn't seem to be an accurate description of what Jesus is predicting - even in hindsight of having read Josephus side-by-side. Jesus mentions 3 Galileans towns, but only Capernaum is mentioned by Josephus in passing as part of his biography. Bethsaida isn't one of the main towns taken in Titus' campaign, either, unless there's something cryptic about that. That just leaves Chorazin, which is significant for the Fishers of Men joke. You could still argue that a blanket statement is made about the Galilean towns in general, but then the mention of these 3 specific towns in the same verse seems to invalidate that.

Titus no doubt covered all 3 of those towns in passing, but the above in my eyes doesn't seem to equate to "Jesus predicts the Galilean towns will be crushed", but rather "Chorazin was one town that Jesus predicted will be crushed". I don't know what other historians make of this, but Jesus doesn't appear to be saying that all of Galilee will be taken in the future - and he's doing a bad job of describing Titus' Galilean campaign in that instance. Why mention it at all? Again, perhaps it's just for setting up the Corachin fish joke - and possibly something cryptic we haven't yet discovered about Bethsaida?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
possibly something cryptic we haven't yet discovered about Bethsaida?
That makes sense; or rather, that there could be something about Bethsaida, Capernaum (and Chorazin?) that we haven't understood yet. Although Josephus doesn't specifically mention it, isn't it necessary that these three towns were also caught it Titus's dragnet? Although, perhaps, crushed without any resistance.

Would this formulation work?

Jesus prefigures Titus by:

1) Predicting that the Galilean towns of Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum will be crushed
2) Visiting a series of other Galilean towns also crushed by Titus (and in mostly the same order mentioned in Josephus)
3) Predicting Jerusalem will be encircled with a wall
4) Predicting The Temple will be razed
 

gilius

Active Member
Yeah, I would say (1) is now a more accurate statement by itself about what Jesus predicts in the gospels, but it doesn't help in terms of summarising the Jesus-Titus typology to newcomers being introduced to the thesis, and Joe often makes a point of saying that Jesus predicts the Galilean towns will be crushed. If I were to describe it to a bible study group or in a podcast, I just feel it should be summarised in a more accurate way; in a nutshell I'd be reluctant to make any broad conclusions about Jesus' predictions for the towns of Galilee in general, but we can say he walked in Titus' footsteps around many of the Galilean towns, if that makes sense.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I don't have a lot of experience introducing the material to newcomers or bible study groups -- so I'd defer to your judgment about what's too complicated, or to what extent Joe's capsule summary would get us in to trouble because of its imprecision.
 
Gilius and Jer

I did not include the fate of the Galilean towns in the Flavian Signature because it seemed too complicated. Luke’s prophesy concerning Capernaum foresees the total annihilation of the rebels in Book three and the relatively less destructive events against Tyre and Sidon earlier in the war.


10:13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre 43 and Sidon,they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 10:14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you! 10:15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades!


Josephus, Jewish War bk. III

X. 8. The people of the country call it Capharnaum....

X. 9.…one might see the lake all bloody, and full of bodies, for not one of them escaped... The number of the slain,... was six thousand and five hundred.


Jewish Wars Book 2, 5, lines 478 & 479

Tyre – Jews were killed but a greater number placed in prison

Sidon – Jews were spared
 

gilius

Active Member
"The people of the area call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish"!
Interesting that's all on the same line! :)

Just need to figure out the "Bethsaida" mystery - could be tied up somewhere in book 4 or Life of Flavius Josephus.
 

gilius

Active Member
There seems to be a mini-parallel here (in sequence) about Titus in Tyre/Sidon area:

Matthew 11:20-24
20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Matthew 12:15-21
15 But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him, and He healed them all, 16 and warned them not to tell who He was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
18 “BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN;
MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES. = judgement to the nations

19 “HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT;
NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.

20 “A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF,
AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, = He will blaze up and not be overwhelmed until he has established judgement on the earth
UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.

21 “AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.”

Mark 3:7-12
7 Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, 8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him. 9 And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him; 10 for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him. 11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!” 12 And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was.

Jewish War
Titus was persuaded to delay and encamp at Cydessa, further from the city. 105 This was a strong village of the Tyrians, on the Mediterranean, which had always hated and made war against the Galileans, a well fortified place of large population, which made it a suitable place for the enemies of our nation.
 

gilius

Active Member
All these places - Tyre, Sidon, Bethsaida, Capernaum, Galilee were visited after the fall of Gadara - but there's no details in the Jewish War or Life of Josephus, it seems, so I guess that part can only be decoded from the gospels alone using the language learnt from understanding all the parallels.
 

gilius

Active Member
Previous Parallel: Keep holy the Sabbath by restoring the "right hand"

This is now the 13th parallel since the beginning of Jesus’ ministry and the first battle in Titus’ campaign that – not only have all occurred in the same sequence within the gospels and Jewish war without criss-crossing each other – but account for all 13 blocks of the gospels without any gaps. We now, however, have our first gap: at this point in the dual allegorical story, Titus now travels to the mountainous region of Tyre and Sidon; in the Gospels we have the Sermon on the Mount – all these blocks (a-l) have no parallel in the Jewish War, so they could have been inserted into the gospels at a later stage compared to the main narrative. And I’ve not analysed them (unaided by Josephus) to see if they contain Roman propaganda in light of what we now know of the symbolic language. So after the next parallel we will resume this story at Luke 7 = Matthew 8, but the Jewish War side continues uninterrupted.

Chronology
Titus was persuaded to delay and encamp at Cydessa, further from the city. This was a strong village of the Tyrians, on the Mediterranean. (JW 4.104-105)

Tolerance of tyre and sidon over galilee
Location:
vicinity of Tyre and Sidon
Code:
[table][tr][td]Titus was persuaded to delay and encamp at Cydessa, further from the city. This was a strong village of the [color=blue][b][size=18]Tyrians[/size], on the Mediterranean[/b][/color], which had always hated and made war against the Galileans, a well fortified place of large population, which made it a suitable place for the enemies of our nation. [b](Wars of the Jews, 4, 104-105)[/b][/td][/tr][tr][td]Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the [color=blue][b]vicinity of [size=18]Tyre[/size] and Sidon[/b][/color], a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him. And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him; for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him. Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!” And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was. [b](Mark 3:7-12)[/b]

But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him, and He healed them all, and warned them not to tell who He was. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN;
MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.
“HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT;
NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.
“A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF,
AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT,
UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.
“AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.”
[b](Matthew 12:15-21)[/b][/td][/tr][/table]
 
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gilius

Active Member
Titus was persuaded to delay and encamp at Cydessa, further from the city. This was a strong village of the Tyrians, on the Mediterranean, which had always hated and made war against the Galileans, a well fortified place of large population, which made it a suitable place for the enemies of our nation. (Wars of the Jews, 4, 104-105)
Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him. And He told His disciples that a boat should stand ready for Him because of the crowd, so that they would not crowd Him; for He had healed many, with the result that all those who had afflictions pressed around Him in order to touch Him. Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, “You are the Son of God!” And He earnestly warned them not to tell who He was. (Mark 3:7-12)

But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him, and He healed them all, and warned them not to tell who He was. This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN;
MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;
I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES.
“HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT;
NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS.
“A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF,
AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT,
UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY.
“AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.”
(Matthew 12:15-21)
Concept/Typology/Satire: Titus has been chosen by his father to bring “justice to the nations” (see more modern Septuagint translations of Isaiah quoted by Matthew):

“I have put my spirit upon him; he will bring forth judgement to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)

This part may be invalid as it’s only in the modern translation:
“He will blaze up and not be overwhelmed until he has established judgement on the earth” (Isaiah 42:4)

Earlier in Matthew we already encountered talk of “judgement” in the context of Tyre and Sidon as Titus began crushing the Galilean towns:

Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. “Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. (Matthew 11:20-24)

So to reflect back on the entrance to the typological system in larger context between the Gospels and the Jewish War, Jesus is predicting the Galilean towns will be crushed – and Titus is fulfilling those prophecies – but he has more tolerance for Tyre and Sidon who “made war against the Galileans”. The reason being: before Vespasian and Titus’ campaign and just prior to the Roman failure under Cestius Gallus:

“After this murder at Scythopolis, the other cities rose up against their Jewish inhabitants. In Askelon they killed two thousand five hundred and in Ptolemais two thousand and put not a few in chains. The people of Tyre also put many to death and put even more in chains, and those in Hippos and Gadara did the same, putting to death the boldest of the Jews, but keeping in custody others of whom they were afraid; and so did the other cities of Syria, according to whether they either hated them or merely feared them. Only the Antiochians, the Sidonians and Apamians spared those living among them and would not let any of the Jews be killed or imprisoned. Perhaps they spared them because their own numbers were so large that they foresaw no danger from them, but I think it was mainly due to their mercy towards people whom they saw had made no revolt”. (JW 2.477-479)

So Tyre and Sidon were more favourable to the Romans, but the Galileans begun the revolt so they are rebellious and ready to be “blazed up” and “descended to hades”:

"The people of the area call it Capharnaum. Some have thought it to be a vein of the Nile, because it produces the Coracin fish" (JW 3.520)

The area where the sea battle was fought at Galilee and Tarichea is known more generally by the locals as Capernaum (also a main city there of the same name). Titus already destroyed them, as predicted by Jesus, when he turned the lake red with Jewish corpses. Coracin has been established as a word corruption for the Galilean peoples of Chorazin who were named after a type of fish and alluded to being among those who perished in the sea battle. Like Chorazin, Bethsaida has no firm identification as a historical Galilean town but may also be part of the joke about the Galilean fishing villages who are named after fish being fished by the Romans; Bethsaida means "house of hunting" or "fishing" (Wikipedia). So the day of Judgement really has come for the Galileans – and Titus is not even done yet with Galilee as we shall later see.

Next Parallel: Faith of the Centurion
 

gilius

Active Member
I've been pondering this more lately, and it's become clear that Matthew 11:20-24 is specificially related to the destruction of the galilean towns around the lake exclusively during the sea battle - comparing them to the gentiles of Tyre and Sidon who the Romans were more tolerant towards.
 
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