I am about to go down Anatoly Fomenko's rabbit hole anyone else wanna take the trip?

[Mark Gordon Brown]

I purchased the first in the series of Anatoly Fomenko's books "The Issue With Chronology". It seems Mr. Fomenko takes another view of history that things are not as old as we have been led to believe and that some historical events are the same as others just different names are given to the characters in them. I have read a lot of works by those claiming events were much older then we have been led to believe, so I am giving the absolute converse an ear or eye now.

His is a long series something like 17 books. I begin the first in the series shortly. Anyone else wanna join in this? Or has anyone else already read his work?

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

This may interest some of you "The Israelites “Went up the way to Bashan” according to Deuteronomy 3: 1. The town of Bashan is often mentioned by the Bible. Amazingly enough, a town by the name of Bassano still exists in Italy. The Bible proceeds to mention that “the king of Bashan came out against us… to battle at Edrei” (Deuteronomy 3: 1). This is clearly a reference to Adria (near the Po estuary). As for Po itself – ancient Latin authors (see Procopius, for instance) often refer to it as “Jordan” (Eridanus) ([ 544], Vol. 2). The name concurs with the Biblical JRDN perfectly well ([ 544], Vol. 2, page 167).

Fomenko, Anatoly (2015-07-16). The Issue with Chronology (History: Fiction or Science? Book 1) (Kindle Locations 1811-1816). Delamere Publishing. Kindle Edition. "

 

[Jerry Russell]

Haha, I spent a lot of time going down this path, and do agree that it's a bit of a "rabbit hole". I finally went on a trip to Greece and Turkey to view some of the archaeological sites and ruins, and convinced myself that they are far too vast, and buried too deep, to be either recent or faked. I remain very interested in chronological revisionism, but I think that Emmet Sweeney and Gunnar Heinsohn are much closer to the truth than Fomenko. He's too sensitive to coincidences, and he doesn't sufficiently consider explanations based in typology rather than identity. His mathematical arguments are bogus -- and as a world class mathematician, he ought to know better.

The Jordan and the Eridanus (Po) do have in common, that both are rivers. The similarity of names could be a result of the Romans recalling and using the name of the river in Palestine for some reason? Bashan is generally understood to be a region in Israel roughly corresponding to the Golan Heights, and not a town at all. Edrei is thought to be the name of a town in Bashan. The resemblance to the names "Bassano" and "Adria" in Italy could be a coincidence, or again it could possibly be because the Romans knew of the Biblical places and reused the names. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Biblical incident really happened in Italy.

 

[Richard Stanley]

I generally agree with Jerry's position. As I remember Fomenko depends upon only 4 points of agreement, and unfortunately it seems that reusing names is a too common trait. Contrast this to Velikovsky's extreme generational detail in Ages in Chaos with the Egyptian 18th Dynasty and the OT kings, which I will attempt to list in the near future. BTW, I just finished his Oedipus and Akhnaton and this is a very convincing equation, albeit that the former is purely fictional, ... ala Jesus. And by collapsing the 18th Dynasty down several centuries then the narrative of Akhenaton, as Oedipus, enters into Greek culture at just the right time for it to be made use of.

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

Hi Jerry, so far my biggest problem with him is the constant talking about Ancient Scenes being painted or etched in Medieval settings. To me that is not such a valid argument as people today update things contemporary. What interests me about this guy's theory is the manipulation of history. All theories dealing with the manipulation of history interest me. As in my lifetime I have seen events I witnessed via television or at times in real life be manipulated. I was in Fiji during a Coup, according to Western Media that was really bad, and well nothing happened where I was in the capital City of Suva.

I will read what he says on the subject as gleaning information from all sources is something I usually can sort out in the long run. Also even though I haven't gotten to this part of his work, I do know from the information that led me to it that he believes there was a historical Jesus, which is something that based on so much other information Joe's and other sources I can never believe in. I will check out the other two you mentioned as well.

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

Yes Richard I am familiar with Velikovsky and others who believe in extreme antiquity, this is why when I heard of Fomenko I had to read his work. I literally heard about this yesterday and went to kindle and purchased the first book for 6 CAD. I personally believe in extreme antiquity for reasons similar to what Jerry said about the age of ruins and such. However, what I question in my heart is who is responsible for them based on how I have seen history manipulated in my lifetime. Even Christianity has changed in my life time. There are people running about claiming to be "First Century Christians" and equating that with being a Republican, I know this because I have family who are like this.

As you know I am interested in Saturn theory, but I also have an interest in the Inklings of Oxford Lewis and Toklien and the claims that their works are based on actual histories. Also relating this to the Eddas and Sagas of Norse peoples. I can't help but think that just maybe an actual history of Europe is being suppressed so when I heard of Fomenko's work I though maybe that it was possible that this actual history of Europe was supplanted by these false histories as he claims the history we have been taught is. If that makes any sense?

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

I finished the first book in the series. My thoughts at this point are that Fomenko and his team are part of a Russian Government Psyop to have a stronger view of Russia among the populous. This is based on the work I have read thus far and one of the criticisms of the work that was included in the volume I have finished. That being the it appears that Fomenko came up with what is basically a very Russo-centric theory about the manipulation of history. Also the way in which this work was marketed is similar to the marketing of the Ringing Cedars/Anastasia cult that has taken root in Russia as well and is very Russo-centric and basically fits with the Russian governments goals for the country, IE getting people back to the land, increasing the population via child birth (Anastasia material says that couples in sexual unions must produce children), home schooling of Children pre a model that teaches them faster than Western methods ( have not purchased the info on this method yet but plan to, I want to see if they take from the Trivium.)

I believe that looking at these two different yet similar idea cults might prove to be profitable if they are looked at as being psyops. If they are indeed Psyops from the Russian Government the Fomenko material then becomes a red herring and a mental virus that instills a sense of nationalism in those who get caught in its catch net.

 

[Richard Stanley]

That might be a good way to look at Fomenko. I just found my hard copy of the same book, so as time permits I'll scan through it. One thing that sticks with me is his look at somebody having gone through the effort to add a one digit to certain dates, and doing so rather crudely. If I remember correctly, this was in relation to certain claims that the 'Christ' episode occurred in what we consider to be around 1,000 CE.

While it creates many typical realignment problems, aligning the year 1066 CE with the year 66 CE is pretty interesting, considering such as the title of the Doomsday (Domesday) Book. With the Normans, they soon introduced so-called Romanesque architecture (supposedly indistinguishable from authentic Roman architecture) and founded institutions of higher learning that quickly became highly respected. This from a people supposedly only rude Vikings a few generations before.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Viewed as a psy-op, another possible explanation is that Russians may tend to be very aware of chronological revisionism because of the early work of N. A. Morozov, whose work may have been generally of higher quality (very little has been translated into English.) Fomenko may be doing 'damage control' with respect to that earlier work -- even though his stuff is popular with the general public and sells a lot of copies, it also gives the field a bad name when it comes to his presentation to well educated and informed folks. 'Poisoning the well', so to speak.

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

Viewed as a psy-op, another possible explanation is that Russians may tend to be very aware of chronological revisionism because of the early work of N. A. Morozov, whose work may have been generally of higher quality (very little has been translated into English.) Fomenko may be doing 'damage control' with respect to that earlier work -- even though his stuff is popular with the general public and sells a lot of copies, it also gives the field a bad name when it comes to his presentation to well educated and informed folks. 'Poisoning the well', so to speak.

Yes poisoning the well is the term I was looking for.
The damage control would make sense as well, or a combination of that and increasing Russian pride. Also the Gudonov (SP?) vs Romanov usurping may be a possible reason for the works. Not sure how but just a hunch. A lot of stops were pulled out of the pipe organ to get rid of the Romanovs so for that reason I believe his view on them might have other than academic purposes.
At any rate the works are on the Amazon Unlimited Program so no need for me to spend any cash on them. Just time. There is so much information that is different in Russia, I think I need to improve my Russian in some way.

 

[Mark Gordon Brown]

I will try to formulate what I mean by the Gudonov vs Romanov thing later, I have to be somewhere shortly.

 

[Charlie Prime]

...he doesn't sufficiently consider explanations based in typology rather than identity. His mathematical arguments are bogus

Would you please elaborate on Fomenko's "...explanations based in typology rather than identity"?

I don't understand what that means.

Any help appreciated! I've just started reading Fomenko's first book. His rabbit-hole is deep, and my minutes on this earth are finite.

 

[Charlie Prime]

My thoughts at this point are that Fomenko and his team are part of a Russian Government Psyop to have a stronger view of Russia among the populous.

If true, that fact would not necessarily invalidate Fomenko's thesis.

All societies spin their history for political purposes. Look no further than Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. whose records were sealed for 50 years in order to maintain a false but politically useful historical narrative.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Hi Charlie,

As an example of my complaint that Fomenko "doesn't consider explanations based on typology rather than identity", look at his discussion of ancient Egyptian religion on pp. 444 thru 448 of "History: Fiction or Science", vol. 1. Fomenko shows that the Egyptians used the symbol of the cross, and that the legend of Osiris, Isis and Horus resembles the story of Christ in many aspects. But this doesn't prove (as he suggests) that the Egyptian religion relies on Christianity, or that they must have been contemporary. The facts might be the same as Christian mythicists such as Acharya (and for that matter Joe) would suggest, that Christianity and also Judaism developed as a typological evolution of Egyptian religion -- but that ordinary chronology could well be correct, that Egyptian religion came first.

Another problem with Fomenko is that he cherry-picks his data to fit his conclusions. You can see this, especially, in his "dynastic parallelism" charts such as Fig. 6.11 (page 264.) If you look at the data points, you'll find in many cases that there are several options for the dates of a particular ruler, caused by issues such as co-regencies and so forth. Or he might optionally choose to combine two or more rulers together. In every case, he makes the choice so as to make the correlation look most impressive. If you just let the data speak for itself, the correlations almost entirely disappear.

 

[Charlie Prime]

Thank you very much Jerry for the analysis. I appreciate it.

Last month I got side-tracked on my investigation of Fomenko and had to put it aside.

I have your Fomenko reservations memorized for when I resume that study. Thank you!