Group Think

Richard's "Space Jesus" is for Christians alone, Jerry ... Like I told you nine years ago (see quote below), these "visions" will be contextualized to cater to all people as a means to unite them all into a single one world religion...

The vast number of dupes who fall for the nonsense of the facilitators are susceptible because the coming deceptions will have been carefully contextualized to cater to the belief systems of various groups.

So New Age, and hippie Buddhist types will be presented with deceptive visions of the New Age Christ or Maitreya (Even the Dalai Lama says so)
Some Christians will believe they are seeing the second coming of Christ to redeem us
UFO enthusiasts will be led to believe in benevolent extra terrestrials to save us from the coming calamity (Even the Pope hints to this)
Other fools will be made to believe Asian secret societies or white hats will save us from whats coming
Chabad Lubavitch will see their great leader rise from the dead

The calamities and horrors that will precede these visions of redemption and salvation will also be properly contextualized.

The goal is for each specific group to be led closer and closer towards a collectivist ideology where a one world government is married to a one world spirituality. It is the tired efforts of god men trying to assimilate us all in their image. The deceivers know they must continue to divide and conquer these groups until they have been sufficiently conditioned to accept certain lines of thinking. I have referred to this as seeding or predictive programming and my own research points to a Kabbalistic conspiracy which, itself, is just a tool of control albeit for the initiates at the top of the pyramid. Follow these groups at your own peril.

Consider, for example, the complete transformation of someone like Micheal Ruppert, who once used his hard nosed detective skills, common sense and logic to arrive at certain truths, only to fall victim to New Age spiritual "enlightenment" sadly breaking from reality completely and ending his own life. One need only listen to his use of language (find his last podcast and listen to it ... those of you who listened to him in the past will be startled at his transformation). His facilitator did a masterful job of rewiring his brain.

I have seen others on this site refer to facilitators such as Peter Lavenda, another fraud who is big on the whole Vatican conspiracy who preys on the feeble minds of the gullible. Consider this New Age interviewer, for example. Utter bunk

http://freemantv.com/peter-levenda-alien-seance/

Remember, listen to everyone, follow no one..

How does this differ from Richard's space Jesus? You should read Project Bluebeam as it predates anything Richard came up with. The alien agenda is a very old idea I have known for a very very long time...
 
Zionism is a TYPE of nationalism. There are 193 nominally "sovereign" states in the UN, and each and every one of them is a center for its own unique brand of nationalism. Zionism is centered in the nation of Israel, and yet it attempts to co-opt any other nationality that it can, to further its goals.

Israel is nothing but a means to an end. Nothing short of world dominion will suffice for the Rothschilds and his army of Chabad army

The existing government of the USA is controlled to a large extent by Zionists, and yet there is also a White Nationalist brand of American nationalism (typified by such as Andrew Anglin) which is distinct from Zionism and opposed to it.

The USA is an occupied nation. It serves the interests of the greater Israel project ...

Perhaps, we shall see. Elite Jews and their allies are opportunistic. If they can meet their goals of world domination by using Israel and the USA as power centers, they'll do that. If Israel and/or the USA wind up destroyed, they will try to use the UN and globalist institutions to rise from the ashes if they can. I don't believe that the future is fully determined, or that either strategy is a guaranteed winner.

Does it not appear to you there is an obvious suicidal bent to how Israel has behaved of late? This is by design, Jerry...

We've discussed Carr, the Protocols and the Pike letter before. They're interesting historical sources of dubious provenance, and I certainly don't accept them as some sort of authoritative prophesy or voice of God.

LOL!! Richard is the most highly venerated source here, and he predicted the coming of Space Jesus in a flying saucer. Did "Pawns in the Game" or the "Protocols" predict Space Jesus??? Carr and Fake Pike and the Elders of Zion are not fit to wash Richard's feet!!

I found Richard's style of writing difficult to read. You may have had an appetite for the things he wrote about but not me. His material never added anything new I am sad to say. If you look back at how things have transpired, the things I have written were eerily accurate and bang on

For example, you guys didn't even know who Chabad was ...

But don't worry, Jerry ... You and everyone else will soon appreciate the dangers of this cult as I did long before Richard wrote about Space Jesus
 
Does it not appear to you there is an obvious suicidal bent to how Israel has behaved of late?

Not just Israel, but virtually the entire planet!! NATO is hell bent on nuclear war with Russia. Israel wants to take on Iran, even if it means also fighting the entire Muslim world. Taiwan is itching for a war with mainland China. The USA seems eager to fight on all three fronts at once if necessary.

Conventional weapons are turning the battlegrounds into wastelands. One can only hope that the nukes are fake, but even if so, modern war has virtually limitless capabilities to destroy the fragile artifice of civilization. The gyre of madness is escalating all too quickly.

How exactly are you predicting that Israel is going to disappear? Swept away by hoardes of Islamic troops from Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, or other surrounding countries? Bombed into oblivion with "conventional" explosives, delivered by missiles, drones or robots? Or, nuked off the face of the earth along with Washington DC, Paris, London and every other major city in the northern hemisphere?
 
the things I have written were eerily accurate and bang on

Maybe it's time for us to tally up the score of accurate predictions made so far? Would you care to be more specific about events or circumstances that you would claim to have predicted in advance, and how your predictions are different from what Richard was anticipating? Or, anything I said?

I am a little bit puzzled about this prediction of yours: that Israel will disappear in "A second holocaust, or burnt offering... it worked so well in wwII".

First of all, as I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of controversy about "the Holocaust". I'm not sure we've ever discussed your views? I'm clear that there was a deliberate campaign of ethnic cleansing against the European Jewish population. I'm not sure how many Jews perished under fire from the Einsatzgruppen, how many were gassed in death chambers, how many were overworked and starved to death, and how many were deported to Russia, Israel, or America. But I don't see any room for doubt that they were eliminated from Germany, one way or another.

I don't see how there could be any precise analogy to WWII, since the Jews started off as a minority population in Europe, while they are in a majority in Israel and they have overt control of the government there.

i suspect the war of civilizations will involve another holocaust through nukes

Is this a prediction, or just a suspicion? I'm certainly concerned about the possibility of a nuclear holocaust, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's inevitable.

I don't see how a nuclear war would benefit our elite billionaire ruling class, any more than it would benefit anyone else. So to the extent that even those people have any control over events, it seems reasonable to hope maybe they'll find a way to prevent it from happening. Perhaps all the nuclear sabre-rattling is just a sham.

And furthermore, I try to be cautious about making predictions, in general. Why take the risk of being proven wrong? But looking through these threads, I see I've ventured out with oracular statements a couple of times.

The millions of Arabs who have been marching in the streets in Yemen and all over the Middle East, in support of the Palestinian cause and the Houthi attacks against Israeli interests, are 100% opposed to the Zionist enterprise. In my view it's highly likely that they will soon overrun Jerusalem, and make sure that the Jewish Temple is not re-built for the foreseeable future.

When SHTF, my prediction is that the Jews will take the blame again (as they always have) while the "Christian" and "Islamic" (really, Illuminati Satanist) majority rulers make off with the spoils, and the commoners don't know what hit them. Even if it unfolds differently this time, and the Jews wind up with the upper hand over Christians and Muslims, what's the difference? Either way, the rest of us will own nothing (if indeed we survive at all), and we'd better be happy.

Regarding the first prediction, I see today that the war between Israel and Hezbollah/Hamas/Iran is ramping up daily, and Putin is making veiled threats to arm the Iranian axis. See https://www.rt.com/russia/598819-western-long-range-missiles-ukraine/.

The second prediction was obviously a bit hyperbolic, but in general I still think this is the direction we're heading.

About "Space Jesus", this was Richard's axe to grind, and I see it as one of many possible futures. But it has been startling to me, to see the mainstream media and Tucker Carlson taking a completely uncritical, even gullible view of recent claims of UFO activity coming from military observers.
 
Maybe it's time for us to tally up the score of accurate predictions made so far? Would you care to be more specific about events or circumstances that you would claim to have predicted in advance, and how your predictions are different from what Richard was anticipating? Or, anything I said?
Well, there was the obvious one where you and Richard were hinting that Trump was controlled by the Catholic Bannon and I was steadfast in my convictions that it was Chabad, specifically through his son in law, who just so happened to be head of Chabad house at Harvard. As time passes, Chabad's influence is becoming more blatant.

But just wait how obvious things will become now that everything is in place for this death cult to execute their script. This is my main prediction ofcourse ... the role of Chabad in orchestrating their end times script using powerful leaders such as Putin, Bibi and Trump. I do hope I am wrong on this one, Jerry because this one has always been my main worry.

If we are being honest, the threat of WW3 was not as pronounced as it is today. I believe the catalyst for nuclear weapons being used will not be NATO troops in Ukraine, though this possibility terrifies me. I believe the true catalyst will be the destruction of Al Aqsa during Trump's tenure as president, which may occur relatively soon after he is sworn in.

This is something I found recently

1717776518505.png

Don't forget that Ariel's Sharon's visit in same holy site caused an intifada! Look at these morons above! Dangerous times indeed as such provocation cannot lead to anything good.

Anyhoo, here is what wrote years ago ...

1717754667404.png

Other discssion about the continued exposition of pedophelia and sacrifices has become much more mainstream, you CANNOT deny that! These were topics that even Postflaviana was uncomfortable discussing but as time passes, more and more of what I wrote will become even that more evident. I am just early..

I will need to read through my voluminous posts to list others...

I am a little bit puzzled about this prediction of yours: that Israel will disappear in "A second holocaust, or burnt offering... it worked so well in wwII".

First of all, as I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of controversy about "the Holocaust". I'm not sure we've ever discussed your views? I'm clear that there was a deliberate campaign of ethnic cleansing against the European Jewish population. I'm not sure how many Jews perished under fire from the Einsatzgruppen, how many were gassed in death chambers, how many were overworked and starved to death, and how many were deported to Russia, Israel, or America. But I don't see any room for doubt that they were eliminated from Germany, one way or another.

Much disagreement exists about the Holocaust of world war 2. The narrative presented to the world persists nonetheless. Jerry, these Kabbalists wish to define your reality -- real or imagined. All "reality builders" have a vested interest in ensuring sheep adopt their world view. What better evidence do you need that the unquestioned acceptance of the absured physics of the Jewish mystic Einstein!

Now about the Holocaust ...
Holocaust denial laws were put in place because the truth is so blatantly obvious that academics and researchers have to be frightened as to not discuss it. The same was true with the censorship and how doctors were targeted if they criticized the covid vaccine. Any discussion about the millions who have already died because of it (and continue to do so) is taboo.

I don't see how there could be any precise analogy to WWII, since the Jews started off as a minority population in Europe, while they are in a majority in Israel and they have overt control of the government there.

Is this a prediction, or just a suspicion? I'm certainly concerned about the possibility of a nuclear holocaust, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's inevitable.

I don't see how a nuclear war would benefit our elite billionaire ruling class, any more than it would benefit anyone else. So to the extent that even those people have any control over events, it seems reasonable to hope maybe they'll find a way to prevent it from happening. Perhaps all the nuclear sabre-rattling is just a sham.

Jerry, the purpose of the Holocaust is very obvious to me but it is best explained in Finkelstein's book, The Holocaust Industry. My view is that this tactic has been so wildly successfull, it will continue to be revamped as it is losing some of it's luster of late. Also, If these parasitic people are now contained within Israel, it will be increasingly difficult to decry anti-semitism in lands they no longer inhabit. Anti-semitism is required to push certain laws to curtail our freedoms, but this heavy handed approach leads to yet more anti-semitism.

Theodore Hertzl knew this very well...
“the Governments of all countries scourged by Anti-Semitism will be keenly interested in assisting us to obtain [the] sovereignty we want”; and indeed that not “only poor Jews” would contribute to an immigration fund for European Jews, “but also Christians who wanted to get rid of them”

Holocaust 2.0 is needed to regain the sympathy of the world and justify more laws that will benefit a tiny elite class at the expense or burnt sacrifice of the next millions of lost Jewish lives, real or imagined.

And furthermore, I try to be cautious about making predictions, in general. Why take the risk of being proven wrong? But looking through these threads, I see I've ventured out with oracular statements a couple of times.

Regarding the first prediction, I see today that the war between Israel and Hezbollah/Hamas/Iran is ramping up daily, and Putin is making veiled threats to arm the Iranian axis. See https://www.rt.com/russia/598819-western-long-range-missiles-ukraine/.

This is not so much a prediction as it is an observation.

The second prediction was obviously a bit hyperbolic, but in general I still think this is the direction we're heading.

About "Space Jesus", this was Richard's axe to grind, and I see it as one of many possible futures. But it has been startling to me, to see the mainstream media and Tucker Carlson taking a completely uncritical, even gullible view of recent claims of UFO activity coming from military observers.

Again, the alien agenda was something I myself explained .. Unlike Richard, however -- I believe the phenomenon will be contextulized to different people in different ways to appeal to their own religios beliefs, so calling it Space Jesus is inaccurate as this appeals to only Christian followers...
 
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Hello Collectivist,

Well, there was the obvious one where you and Richard were hinting that Trump was controlled by the Catholic Bannon and I was steadfast in my convictions that it was Chabad, specifically through his son in law, who just so happened to be head of Chabad house at Harvard.
How could you tell whether Trump is being more heavily influenced by Bannon or by Kushner? To what extent are any of these characters really independent agents with free will driven by their moral convictions, as opposed to actors playing out some script? Supposing you could show that Trump quotes Kushner more often than Bannon, how does that prove anything other than the existence of a dialectic?

Bannon has become a martyr for the MAGA cause, by getting to jail ahead of Trump. What has Kushner got, to equal that?

I'm not asking just to be argumentative, I'm interested in hearing any thoughts or evidence you have to bring.

This is my main prediction ofcourse ... the role of Chabad in orchestrating their end times script using powerful leaders such as Putin, Bibi and Trump.

As far as it goes, isn't this more or less the same thing we've been predicting? Except that in addition to Chabad's role in the script, we (meaning myself, plus Richard posthumously) see a role for the Catholics, and Protestants, and Muslims, and other Jewish sects -- inclusive of all Abrahamic fundamentalists. Plus the occult mystics, and the Freemasons and their fellow travelers, Scientologists and Theosophists. Not to mention Mormons. All these cults seem to be working to the same ends.

Supposing you had a magic wand to cause every single Chabad adherent on the planet, to suddenly disappear (as in, raptured to Heaven by God.) Would this make any measurable difference whatsoever, in the disaster now unfolding? I think not.

And we're not sure that any of us unaffiliated, non-elite mortals really have a copy of the script. And no matter how well written the script might be, surely the actors must be forced occasionally to improvise as they go along, based on unforeseen events.

I believe the catalyst for nuclear weapons being used will not be NATO troops in Ukraine, though this possibility terrifies me. I believe the true catalyst will be the destruction of Al Aqsa during Trump's tenure as president, which may occur relatively soon after he is sworn in.

The wars in Ukraine and Palestine are acting more and more like a single front. I've seen talk that Israel's hunger for shells and ammunition for Gaza and Lebanon, may start to exacerbate shortages in Ukraine. And as I mentioned, Putin is threatening to help Iran's allies in retaliation for NATO's missiles deployed against Russia from Ukraine. They don't call it "World War" for nothing!!

When you mention "the destruction of Al Aqsa" I am not sure how this is going to happen. I think we're agreeing, that Israel is very likely going to be defeated in conventional warfare, and there's likely to be a "holocaust" of Israeli citizens killed by bombing, strafing and invasion. But who exactly is going to be bombing the sacred site of the Temple Mount? Wouldn't proper Muslims try to avoid any harm coming to the site, just the same as orthodox Jews would also avoid its destruction? I do expect Al Aqsa to fall entirely under Islamic control.

As I understand it, the "Christian Zionist" script calls for the Jewish temple to be built again at the site of Al Aqsa. Do you agree, or do you think the Chabad script will be satisfied when/if the existing Al Aqsa (Islamic) temple is destroyed? Because as I mentioned, I don't think the Jews will be in a position to be carrying out major construction projects any time soon.

About "nuclear weapons being used", are you predicting that just a few tactical weapons might be exchanged before some semblance of sanity or calm is restored? Most military theorists say that once the genie is out of the bottle, escalation to Mutually Assured Destruction will be swift and inevitable, because of "use it or lose it" logic.

Joe Atwill, for all his attempts at finding truth is off the mark when he says it is in nobody's interest to see this escalation reach a destructive climax.

Yep, Joe and I are on the same page about this. And I don't think the script calls for nuclear holocaust; instead it calls for God's Chosen People (broadly construed) to reign over the rabble for all eternity. That's rabble (as in millions if not billions of enslaved but 'happy' people), not radioactive rubble.

But I can't deny that a massive nuclear exchange is a possible outcome here, whether the elite benefit from it or not. And if it happens, sadly, there won't be anybody here to acknowledge that you were right after all.
[re Alien Agenda]: I believe the phenomenon will be contextulized to different people in different ways to appeal to their own religios beliefs, so calling it Space Jesus is inaccurate as this appeals to only Christian followers...

I agree completely, as I'm sure Richard would have as well.
 
Hello Collectivist,


How could you tell whether Trump is being more heavily influenced by Bannon or by Kushner? To what extent are any of these characters really independent agents with free will driven by their moral convictions, as opposed to actors playing out some script? Supposing you could show that Trump quotes Kushner more often than Bannon, how does that prove anything other than the existence of a dialectic?

Pretty sure it was Kushner who had Bannon removed, not Trump. This from a POLITICO article 2017
1717831866372.png

Bannon has become a martyr for the MAGA cause, by getting to jail ahead of Trump. What has Kushner got, to equal that?

Oh I don't know... This again from POLITICO ...

1717832086220.png

I'm not asking just to be argumentative, I'm interested in hearing any thoughts or evidence you have to bring.

Bannon was used by Trump and Chabad to make inroads within Trump's campaign ... to get him elected. Once that was achieved, Bannon was no longer needed. By having Bannon in jail, this just reinforces the idea they want him out of the way.

As far as it goes, isn't this more or less the same thing we've been predicting? Except that in addition to Chabad's role in the script, we (meaning myself, plus Richard posthumously) see a role for the Catholics, and Protestants, and Muslims, and other Jewish sects -- inclusive of all Abrahamic fundamentalists.

I don't see any evidence that the Catholics, Protestants or Muslim factions have any power in shaping the world. Chabad holds all the keys.

Plus the occult mystics, and the Freemasons and their fellow travelers, Scientologists and Theosophists. Not to mention Mormons. All these cults seem to be working to the same ends.

Those who exercise any influence are cryptos ... This includes Trump and Putin, whose bloodlines connect them to Sabbatean Jewry.

Supposing you had a magic wand to cause every single Chabad adherent on the planet, to suddenly disappear (as in, raptured to Heaven by God.) Would this make any measurable difference whatsoever, in the disaster now unfolding? I think not.

I believe so yes. Remove Chabad and things change dramatically. This is not to say some other entity will not swoop in to fill this power vacuum, but I can say with some confidence they would not be as vile as Chabad.

And we're not sure that any of us unaffiliated, non-elite mortals really have a copy of the script. And no matter how well written the script might be, surely the actors must be forced occasionally to improvise as they go along, based on unforeseen events.

No, we do not have the script. All we can go by is what we see unfold before our eyes and guage these events against the backdrop of the agenda we believe they are trying to push through.

If I see any evidence that the agenda has changed, Iwill be the first to admit I was wrong.

The wars in Ukraine and Palestine are acting more and more like a single front. I've seen talk that Israel's hunger for shells and ammunition for Gaza and Lebanon, may start to exacerbate shortages in Ukraine. And as I mentioned, Putin is threatening to help Iran's allies in retaliation for NATO's missiles deployed against Russia from Ukraine. They don't call it "World War" for nothing!!

Yes, but I believe the worst of it will be aimed in Israel with your Space Jesus coming in to intervene an all out global nuclear calamity.

When you mention "the destruction of Al Aqsa" I am not sure how this is going to happen. I think we're agreeing, that Israel is very likely going to be defeated in conventional warfare, and there's likely to be a "holocaust" of Israeli citizens killed by bombing, strafing and invasion. But who exactly is going to be bombing the sacred site of the Temple Mount?

Great question Jerry. The foundation of Al Aqsa has already been intentionally weakened but it's destruction may not be the result of bombs. It may be blamed on divine intervention by God through earth quakes or other acts of nature, upon which time Iran will accuse Israel of using HAARP or some other technology.

1717834278832.png


It doesn't matter what will bring the Al Aqsa mosque down, when the new temple mount is redefined by the Zionists, all hell will break loose.

Wouldn't proper Muslims try to avoid any harm coming to the site, just the same as orthodox Jews would also avoid its destruction? I do expect Al Aqsa to fall entirely under Islamic control.

It will most likely become a place of worship for Jews and Jews alone. The third temple's creation is part and parcel with the coming Messianic Age.

As I understand it, the "Christian Zionist" script calls for the Jewish temple to be built again at the site of Al Aqsa. Do you agree, or do you think the Chabad script will be satisfied when/if the existing Al Aqsa (Islamic) temple is destroyed?

Al Aqsa's destruction serves two purposes ... to be a catalyst to the coming war of civilizations and also to begin construction of the third temple to usher in the Messianic age.

Because as I mentioned, I don't think the Jews will be in a position to be carrying out major construction projects any time soon.

I disagree

About "nuclear weapons being used", are you predicting that just a few tactical weapons might be exchanged before some semblance of sanity or calm is restored? Most military theorists say that once the genie is out of the bottle, escalation to Mutually Assured Destruction will be swift and inevitable, because of "use it or lose it" logic.

There is no power among nations. There is a single entity that already runs the world. That entity is Chabad.

Yep, Joe and I are on the same page about this. And I don't think the script calls for nuclear holocaust; instead it calls for God's Chosen People (broadly construed) to reign over the rabble for all eternity. That's rabble (as in millions if not billions of enslaved but 'happy' people), not radioactive rubble.

The nuclear exchange will occur in Israel for sure, but perhaps elsewhere such as the USA, but it will be very selective according to Chabad's dictates.

But I can't deny that a massive nuclear exchange is a possible outcome here, whether the elite benefit from it or not. And if it happens, sadly, there won't be anybody here to acknowledge that you were right after all.

Again, an all out global catastrophe will be averted by your Space Jesus...
 
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an all out global catastrophe will be averted...

I'm glad we're in agreement about that, at least as a possibility.

Bannon was used by Trump and Chabad to make inroads within Trump's campaign ... to get him elected.

So you would have to agree that Bannon's services as a Catholic were necessary, at least as a matter of having enough influence to drag along other Catholics?

As the next election draws near, we find Trump is again saying nice things about Bannon.

Those who exercise any influence are cryptos ... This includes Trump and Putin, whose bloodlines connect them to Sabbatean Jewry.

This might draw in a broad net! Searching for information about exactly how Putin is linked to the Sabbateans (which I couldn't find), I happened to read this article about the new "Tartarian" conspiracy theory, from Miles Mathis. He says that the name "Genghis Khan" may be a variant of "George Cohen", and links the Mongol empire to the Phoenicians (aka Jews). Then he says:

http://mileswmathis.com/tartar.pdf

The Phoenicians went into a cocoon of their own making—manufactured by their own historians like Herodotus, Thucydides, Plutarch, and Pliny—pretending to be dead. They then rose up on those ashes, having become the Israelites, the Persians, the Greeks, the Mycenaeans, the Minoans, the Armenians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Carthaginians, and the Byzantines. Later they became the Mongols, the Vikings, the Goths, the Ottomans, the Franks, the Normans, the Scots, the Stuarts, the Medicis, the Bourbons, the Habsburgs, the Stanleys, the Romanovs, the Sachs, the Kohens, the Goldmans, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Kennedys, and the Vanderbilts. This is why they love name changes so much: every name change is like another cocoon and another phoenix—another rising from the pretend ashes, and another hiding of the past.​
That's quite a list of "crypto" peoples and families!! Romans, Greeks, Byzantines, Franks, Normans, Medicis, Bourbons: (crypto) Catholic! Persians, Carthaginians, Ottomans: (crypto) Muslim! Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Stanleys (crypto) Protestant! Israelites, Sachs, Goldmans, Rothschilds: (crypto) Chabad!!

And it must be acknowledged, that if you go far enough back in history: Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism, and occult mysticisms, all have deep roots in Judaism. All believe that they are God's chosen people. But it doesn't mean there aren't deep disagreements and schisms and competition and wars among them.

Al Aqsa's destruction serves two purposes ... to be a catalyst to the coming war of civilizations and also to begin construction of the third temple to usher in the Messianic age.

You've spoken about the "war of civilizations" a couple of times. Which civilizations are you talking about? And I assume you mean "fake war of civilizations", since you believe they are all ultimately controlled by Chabad?
 
http://mileswmathis.com/tartar.pdf

The Phoenicians went into a cocoon of their own making—manufactured by their own historians like Herodotus, Thucydides, Plutarch, and Pliny—pretending to be dead. They then rose up on those ashes, having become the Israelites, the Persians, the Greeks, the Mycenaeans, the Minoans, the Armenians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Carthaginians, and the Byzantines. Later they became the Mongols, the Vikings, the Goths, the Ottomans, the Franks, the Normans, the Scots, the Stuarts, the Medicis, the Bourbons, the Habsburgs, the Stanleys, the Romanovs, the Sachs, the Kohens, the Goldmans, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Kennedys, and the Vanderbilts. This is why they love name changes so much: every name change is like another cocoon and another phoenix—another rising from the pretend ashes, and another hiding of the past.​

It's interesting that you mention Phoenicians here. The 1948 film Angel Of Tenth Avenue lays out the full Flavian conspiracy disguised as a children's film and contains the question "who are the Phoenicians?"

The full film is on Youtube if you haven't seen it. The allegory is very obvious if you know to look for it.

 
Welcome to the Forum, Detournement!

The answer to the question, is in this clip at TCM. "Phoenicians are people who live in Phoenix!!"

Which leaves us to ponder: why was Phoenix named after Phoenicians, contrary to Miles Mathis' observation that they would never name anything so transparently? Do you happen to know?
 
Welcome to the Forum, Detournement!

The answer to the question, is in this clip at TCM. "Phoenicians are people who live in Phoenix!!"

Which leaves us to ponder: why was Phoenix named after Phoenicians, contrary to Miles Mathis' observation that they would never name anything so transparently? Do you happen to know?

No I don't. Wes Anderson has a new film coming out called 'The Phoenician Scheme' though. His previous film 'Asteroid City' was very interesting so it will probably be worth watching closely.

Were you already aware of 'Tenth Avenue Angel'? It seems to be definitive proof of Atwill's idea of Flavian typology being passed down through generations of artists.
 
why was Phoenix named after Phoenicians?
According to "The Myth of the Phoenix" by R. Van den Broek, pp. 64-65, the word "Phoenician" is most likely traced back to a West Semitic (Arabic / Hebrew) word 'pua', which is a red dye. The Phoenicians (or Punites) were merchants who were famous for making products with this red dye.

Meanwhile: the griffin was a legendary bird-like creature with the body of a lion, known across the ancient world from as early as 3000 BC. Van den Broek thinks that the classical Greeks learned about the griffin from the Phoenicians; thus they knew it as 'that Phoenician bird'. The classical Greeks, starting with Hesiod in ~800 BC, developed the mythology of the red 'Phoenix' bird that died by fire and was reborn from the ashes. In the invention of this myth, the Greeks may also have been inspired by stories of an Egyptian 'Bennu' bird.

WIkipedia reports that until about 1450 AD, the Phoenix area was inhabited by an advanced Native American tribe known as the Hohokam, who developed an extensive network of irrigation canals for agriculture. When the Europeans arrived to settle the area in the 1860's, these canals were ancient ruins. The settlers, inspired by those ruins, aimed to build new canals to make the land fertile again. Thus, they came up with the idea to name their city 'Phoenix' to commemorate the revitalization of agriculture in the region.

So unless there's some alternate explanation, it seems that the Phoenicians had nothing to do with Phoenix, aside from the name? Sometimes a coincidence, is just a coincidence.

Were you already aware of 'Tenth Avenue Angel'?

Nope. It's now on my list. Thanks for the tip! I will report back after watching.
 
So unless there's some alternate explanation, it seems that the Phoenicians had nothing to do with Phoenix, aside from the name? Sometimes a coincidence, is just a coincidence.

Yes I think the film was simply referencing mysteries surrounding the fate of the Phoenicians rather than anything particular about Phoenix.

If you notice in the same scene Flavia (the little girl) is described as a caught fish by Stephen (the Jesus stand in just as St Stephen is the Jesus type in Acts of the Apostles).
 
Were you already aware of 'Tenth Avenue Angel'? It seems to be definitive proof of Atwill's idea of Flavian typology being passed down through generations of artists.

I suspect you may be seeing more than I did, on my first viewing of the film.

Things I did notice:

(1) Flavia's mother is Helen and her father is Joe. Helen sounds like Helena, the mother of Izates, an analog of Jesus in Josephus. Joe could be Joseph (biblical father of Jesus). Flavia herself could represent the entire Roman dynastic family, or Roman Christians more generally, or she could be a namesake of Flavia Domatilla, one of the first Flavians who is officially acknowledged as a Christian.

(2) Mac, Flavia's friend who sells newspapers, is blind like St. Paul.

(3) Flavia's mother tells her that mice turn into money. So she puts a mouse in a box and hides it behind some bricks, and leaves it entombed for three days. When she returns, the mouse has indeed been resurrected as money. The money actually came from two young hooligans who stole it from Mac.

(4) At the surface level, the entire movie seems to be placed in a Christian moral universe, and the point is to emphasize the importance of faith, even when it's completely undermined by reality.

As a "caught fish", Flavia is being portrayed as one of Christ's disciples, in the original sense that Christ sent out his missionaries to catch "fish", that is, to make converts.

At first, Flavia deeply believes all the tall tales her mother tells her: that Steve has been on a world tour, that mice turn into money, that Steve and Susan are going to get married, and that dreams come true in general. All of it is unmasked as one "white" lie after another.

Yet, as the film is coming to a close, Helen comes up with another whopper: that cows kneel at midnight on Christmas eve, to worship the baby Jesus. Flavia desperately wants to believe!! And sure enough, Steve helps Flavia find a cow that kneels for Jesus exactly as Helen promised. (Actually, the cow appears to be standing up with its hind legs first, as cows commonly do, in hopes that Flavia will have a treat.)

Flavia's faith is restored; her mother Helen miraculously gives birth to another child, although she didn't appear at all pregnant the day before, and Helen herself also recovers from falling down the stairs; Susan and Steve agree to get married after all; and Flavia receives three pairs of roller skates for Christmas -- one from Steve, one from Mac and one from the town merchants.

Those roller skates must mean something!! Through most of the film, Flavia rides around town on one roller skate, using her other foot to propel herself. Then she loses the skate, I didn't notice exactly where. And then she gets three pairs of skates. Why??

The reference to "Phoenicians" also seems random and inscrutable. Flavia and Steve are cleaning and polishing the glass windows on a taxicab, when Flavia mentions that the Phoenicians invented glass. But she doesn't know what Phoenicians are. The taxicab and its glass windows must be symbolic of something, and both are related to Phoenicians. But, symbolizing what?? The church, maybe?

In terms of Flavian typology: I would certainly agree that the filmmakers are aware that Christianity is a fake, perhaps invented by St Paul or by Helena (Izate's mother) or both. But they want to have faith anyhow.

Detournement: please help me out here!! What am I missing?
 
My viewing partner Janet has come up with some more connections.

1. Steve's departure to jail, his re-appearance, his threats to leave again, and his ultimate return to marry Susan; are parallel to Jesus' departure at the Crucifixion, his re-appearance to the apostles, his final ascent back to Heaven, and his promises to come back at the end of time and marry the church.

2. Mac is selling the news in various versions to his customers; Paul is spreading the Gospel.

3. Flavia plays a "shell game" with a dishonest razor blade salesman; she wins the game by leaving an ice cream stain on the razor box where she has hidden a dollar bill. Maybe this means that Flavia is smart enough to discover the one true church among all the fakes, but only by rigging the game??

4. The scene with Steve and Flavia polishing the glass on the taxicab: possibly an enactment of 1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Steve is washing cars; Jesus washes away sin.

5. Three pairs of roller skates symbolizing the Trinity? Gifts from the Father (the town merchants), Son (Steve) and Holy Ghost (Mac). Replacing Yahweh, the old single skate.

The more I think about it, the more it all seems very orthodox and Christian friendly.
 
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Detournement: please help me out here!! What am I missing

Hopefully this helps.

I see the film being about Flavia's experience of moving from the position of being blind to the true nature of Christianity to being enlightened or initiated into the Flavian deception. At the beginning of the film she is aligned with the blind man and by the end she is deceiving him. As you say the skates represent the Holy Trinity and the deception is that Vespasian, Titus and Domitian are actually a single religious entity. There is only one set of skates and one god.

The mouse and money in the box to me symbolised the false resurrection. The mouse signifying Jesus's meekness being replaced by the money representing the power of organised Christianity and the occult imagery which appears on the bills. And of course the money is stolen from the blind and ignorant Mac.

Stephen is the Jesus type as he is in Acts of The Apostles. Flavia believes that his prison sentence was actually a round the world trip. Joe Atwill argues that Titus's campaign against the Jews was satirised as Jesus's gospel ministry. Again we have reality versus the false story told to deceive and placate. The happy ending of the film is Steve/Jesus joining the Flavian family.

Flavia's father isn't often present in the film but is important to the typology. His name is Joseph linking him to Josephus. He works as a fiddler and at the end of the film announces a unseen character named Augie has given him a job. That means Flavia's patronage stretches from Augustus to Nero (the fiddler) representing the succession of Roman Emperors in power prior to the Flavian family.

There is a reference to Domitian's rivalry with Titus in the ice cream scene where the ice cream seller says that his brother sells low quality ice cream. Flavia then uses the Ice Cream to make a mark in the three card monte style game. This is a reference to the idea of people being given 'marks' in the Domitian authored Revelation Of St John.

Late on in the film Flavia breaks the ornamental cow which is used to hold coins. This is a reference to Moses coming down from the mountain and smashing the Golden Ass. Then later when the Flavia's brother is born on Christmas morning Flavia searches for and finds a cow. So we have both the beginning and end of Hebrewism depicted in the film. The beginning is Moses smashing the golden calf, the end is the birth of Jesus (which represents Titus's destruction of the Temple). The false idol is first smashed then returns.

The opening scene of the film provides a few details of the satire. It opens with two young ruffians levying a street tax on a couple which is then refuted by the still innocent Flavia. This obviously represents Jewish resistance to Roman occupation. Also in the opening scene Flavia reads the news vendor a story about a gangster called Dutch Smith which is a Christianized version of Dutch Schultz again portraying the erasure of Jews in favour of Christians. Then in case that wasn't quite understood we see a shop front with a 'Schultz' banner. The blind vendor also has a prominent 'Yale Record' displayed. The second headline Flavia reads to the blind man (in the third scene) is "There's a hen in Wisconsin which laid a triple yoked egg", again the Trinity being promoted to ignorant.

The reason the film is set on Tenth Avenue is because Titus sieged Jerusalem using the Tenth Legion.
 
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Hopefully this helps.

Yes indeed. Many fascinating observations.

The film was directed by Roy Rowland, reportedly the son of Russian Jewish immigrants. The screen play was by Harry Ruskin and Eleanore Griffin. Griffin wrote several movies with religious themes. And, based on a story by Angna Enters. who also wrote another Margaret O'Brien movie, "Lost Angel".

Dutch Schultz allegedly buried his $7 million treasure somewhere in Phoenicia, NY, although it has never been found.

I agree there's no doubt that the filmmakers were 'Jesus mythicists'. But that category would include Richard Carrier's theory, which is that Christianity began with St Paul and other spiritual Jews worshipping an angelic celestial Jesus. According to that theory, later adherents to this new religion invented tall tales about Jesus becoming an actual man who preached the Gospel before his crucifixion and resurrection.

Carrier's account is to be compared and contrasted to the Roman Origins theory, in which Christianity is seen as a deliberate invention of the Roman imperial court.

How much evidence do we have, to place Rowland, Ruskin, Griffin and Enters into the Roman Origins camp, as opposed to the Celestial Jesus camp? I'm seeing Steve's trip to jail as a possible parallel to Titus's military campaign; the ice cream brothers as symbolic of Titus and Domitian; and the Tenth Avenue / Tenth Legion parallel. But that seems a little thin. Steve's jail visit could be a skeptical take on Jesus' alleged Egyptian journey; the ice cream brothers could be James and Judas; and maybe Tenth Avenue is where the gangsters were hanging out. I'm not sure it's enough to be convincing.

Here's another puzzle. At the end of the film, Flavia says that "Among the Eskimos, kissing is practically unknown. No Eskimos around here!!" What's that about?
 
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Yes indeed. Many fascinating observations.

The film was directed by Roy Rowland, reportedly the son of Russian Jewish immigrants. The screen play was by Harry Ruskin and Eleanore Griffin. Griffin wrote several movies with religious themes. And, based on a story by Angna Enters. who also wrote another Margaret O'Brien movie, "Lost Angel".


Carrier's account is to be compared and contrasted to the Roman Origins theory, in which Christianity is seen as a deliberate invention of the Roman imperial court.

How much evidence do we have, to place Rowland, Ruskin, Griffin and Enters into the Roman Origins camp, as opposed to the Celestial Jesus camp?

I think the fact that the main character is called Flavia, the references to Domitian and the Fiddler (Nero) working for Augie (Augustus) points strongly to the Romans. I've been unable to find a copy of 'Lost Angel' but I suspect it will have similar themes.

Another thing I discovered last year related to Atwill's Catcher In The Rye essay. Atwill argues that in the nightclub passage the character Berniece refers to Titus's lover Berniece of the Herodian royal family who in Flavian theory was one of the authors of the gospel. There are a few odd details in that passage with Holden asking Berniece if she ever heard of dancers called 'Marco and Miranda' and then a couple of mentions of Peter Lorre. I think that Miranda is a reference to the 1948 film 'The Conspirators' starring Heddy Lamar and featuring Peter Lorre where the Brazilian singer Aurora Miranda appears in a night club scene.


In that scene Miranda sings a song while Heddy Lamar translates another song she knows "For the love of you I lost god. For the love of you I lost myself. Now I see myself alone. Without god, without love, without you". Paul Henreid tells her these are the wrong words and the song actually say "In the love of you I lost myself. And now I am alone no more, with god with love, with you". This fits in with Catcher In The Rye's multiple versions of the Burns song 'Coming Through The Rye' being the clue to readers that the full text is esoteric and also Holden's trauma at finding out the truth about Christianity as dramatized in the scene where James Castle (Jesus Christ) is the killed by the conceited Phil Stabile and 'six other lousy bastards'. At the conclusion of the film Henried's character assumes the identity of a dead character to fight in the Resistance and his version of the song is repeated in voice over.

The other film is 'The Black Angel' from 1946 in which Lorre plays a nightclub owner called Marco who is suspected of a murder and revealed to be secretly Jewish. The final twist is that the Lorre's Jew is innocent and the murder was actually committed by the gentile character who has been the hero of the film throughout while he was blackout drunk. Roman busts appear throughout the film but I couldn't ID any.
 
I think the fact that the main character is called Flavia, the references to Domitian and the Fiddler (Nero) working for Augie (Augustus) points strongly to the Romans.

Nobody wants to believe more than I do!!

But, to play devil's advocate for a moment more... Flavia is not the perpetrator of the fraud, she's the victim! Nero and Augustus are the wrong Romans, more like innocent bystanders. The reference to Domitian is not very clear.

And -- in favor of the Celestial Jesus model -- consider that before he went to jail, Steven was driving a new-fangled heavenly conveyance known as a taxicab.
 
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