Globalist Warming Denial & the Green New Deal

Richard Stanley

Administrator
This 5 minute video features a former founder of Greenpeace and president of Greenpeace Canada. He premises his discussion on that climate change is continuous, based upon such things as the solar relationship to the Earth, e.g. the Milankovitch Cycles, and then goes on to briefly discuss other details. From my perspective, the whole political aspect is, firstly, driven by certain elites who, as always, wish to advantage themselves over everyone else, by garnering crony economic benefits among others. But as Moore is saying, we can't predict which way the near term changes will break, because there are yet too many factors to take into account. Moore links the use of the term GW Denial to associate and paint skeptics with Holocaust Denial, and, of course, the real debate is about Man-Made Global Warming.


That said, the history of human civilizations are dominated by climate and such as short term famines as described in the Bible and confirmed by archaeology (see Brain Fagan's The Long Summer). This basic knowledge, at least, seems to have been understood by the ancient elites, and ultimately why such kings as Akhenaton and Shalmanesar III identified themselves as sun kings. In this case, and apparently as today, they saw themselves as the elite "worthies" worthy of positioning their human pawns in a manner to preferentially favor their own outcomes.

Perhaps we should be concerned about our addiction to carbon based energy, but it was these same elites that got us addicted to it, as they literally did with opium, human slavery (where are your Christmas toys made Christians?), and such.
 
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lorenhough

Well-Known Member
This 5 minute video features a former founder of Greenpeace and president of Greenpeace Canada. He premises his discussion on that climate change is continuous, based upon such things as the solar relationship to the Earth, e.g. the Milankovitch Cycles, and then goes on to briefly discuss other details. From my perspective, the whole political aspect is, firstly, driven by certain elites who, as always, wish to advantage themselves over everyone else, by garnering crony economic benefits among others. But as Moore is saying, we can't predict which way the near term changes will break, because there are yet too many factors to take into account. Moore links the use of the term GW Denial to associate and paint skeptics with Holocaust Denial, and, of course, the real debate is about Man-Made Global Warming.


That said, the history of human civilizations are dominated by climate and such as short term famines as described in the Bible and confirmed by archaeology (see Brain Fagan's The Long Summer). This basic knowledge, at least, seems to have been understood by the ancient elites, and ultimately why such kings as Akhenaton and Shalmanesar III identified themselves as sun kings. In this case, and apparently as today, they saw themselves as the elite "worthies" worthy of positioning their human pawns in a manner to preferentially favor their own outcomes.

Perhaps we should be concerned about our addiction to carbon based energy, but it was these same elites that got us addicted to it, as they literally did with opium, human slavery (where are your Christmas toys made Christians?), and such.
Watching every breath you take taxing your existence
I am going to fill up carbon dioxide bloons and trade them. Have you ever seen a carbon dioxide scale weighting tons of carbon?

We are carbon-based creatures carbon dioxide is just as important oxygen to your life. A gas that make up .03% what % is man made jerry?
When you exercise and Breath the perfect mix of carbon dioxide and oxygen is introduced into your body. When I add more carbon dioxide to my greenhouse I get faster growth more vegetables. It's never caused by the greenhouse to get Hotter! All the carbon dioxide humans computer programs are not allowed to consider the sun.
Carbon sinks it does not rise to the sky and affect the atmosphere ..
No one can predict the weather it's always changing that's why they call it climate change.

We were with war with Germay now there are friends
The earth was getting colder they told us then they sad it was getting hotter now it's just changing?

To blame humans for the problem but not themselves is there game to tax you to reduce your numbers all for there families future but not yours, the new religion is earth. But not human based any more,there only in the way. That is 90% is not needed. Sorry to say.. They looked for a reason for uniting us space Aliens to climate change it's all faith based. 911 story tellers.

Good stuff richard hope dr. jerry watches it! Its hard for Those you have been indoctornated
 
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Richard Stanley

Administrator
The following excerpt is the opening paragraphs of a long article on the Green New Deal championed by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The article persuasively argues that this proposal is well within the long tradition of the American government guiding the "invisible hand" of the private sector in fostering the tackling of vast, new economic projects. And that without it having done so, we would not have interstate highways, railroads, computers, the Internet, and more.

The economic thinker who most influenced the Green New Deal isn’t Marx or Lenin. No, if you want to understand Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s bid to remake the economy to fight climate change, you need to read Hamilton.
Yes, Alexander Hamilton. Long before he was associated with theatrical hip-hop, former Treasury Secretary Hamilton called for policies that sound familiar to us today. Like Representative Ocasio-Cortez, he wanted massive federal spending on new infrastructure. Like Donald Trump, he believed that very high tariffs can nurture American manufacturing. And like Elizabeth Warren, he was willing to bend the Constitution to reform the financial system.
Hamilton, in short, successfully used the power of the federal government to boost manufacturing, to pick winners and losers, and to shape the fate of the U.S. economy. He is the father of American industrial policy: the set of laws and regulations that say the federal government can guide economic growth without micromanaging it. And the Green New Deal, for all its socialist regalia, only makes sense in light of his capitalistic work. ...

The article discusses that beginning with Ronald Reagan and Milton Friedman, the new libertarian laissez-faire economic ideology has mostly won the day and thus we have unwisely abandoned this practice of guiding the Invisible Hand (of Adam Smith's). The consequence of which has been the ceding of vast swathes of economic growth to other regions, thus creating the divisive social environment of today.

As the article also discusses Trump's use of such as tariffs have been tinged with his racist rhetoric, making the proponents of the Green New Deal adopt less effective political messaging in reaction.

The nuanced metaphor of a 'guided Invisible Hand' goes partway to the notion of a 'hybrid' socialist/capitalist economy, of which we've actually had to some degree for a long time.

The article provides a link, also below, to the considerable reading list of the New Consensus, the economic group also pushing the Green New Deal. Some of the books discuss the successful history of how countries, recent and centuries past, including the USA, have done all this before.

https://newconsensus.com/reading-list/
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I've been reading an interesting article series about where the "Left" in the US is headed today. Namely, there's an increasing level of panic about the Global Warming threat. This is being orchestrated by the "non-profit industrial complex" consisting of various nouveau riche left-leaning foundations including Gates & Buffett, as well as old money like Ford & Rockefeller. They're currently focused on creating a movement among the youth, aka "Generation Z", currently ages 10 to 24 (born 1995-2009). The themes are "We Don't Have Time", "Zero Hour", "Extinction Rebellion" and so forth.

In her intricately researched six part series entitled "The Manufacturing of Greta Thunberg", Cory Morningstar traces the machinations and vast resources of this movement. And, she points out that it's focused on high-tech capitalist solutions, including carbon trading and carbon sequestration, and nuclear power and vast industrial solar & wind farms. Very little about conservation beyond a personal level, and certainly nothing about the vast environmental destructiveness of the military. Morningstar also identifies a strong racist & colonialist viewpoint, as "overpopulation" transfers blame to poverty-stricken rural villagers who have nothing else but kids.

Morningstar shows that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was recruited to run for Congress by the "Justice Democrats" and "Brand New Congress", both intimately tied to this foundation-driven green movement. Thus, it's not surprising to find her pushing the "Green New Deal".

It's left for another article at the same "Wrong Kind of Green" website, "Scurrying Fascist Cockroaches", to identify the basically anti-democratic orientation of the movement. John Steppling quotes Left icon Noam Chomsky:

Suppose it was discovered tomorrow that the greenhouse effects has been way underestimated, and that the catastrophic effects are actually going to set in 10 years from now, and not 100 years from now or something. Well, given the state of the popular movements we have today, we’d probably have a fascist takeover-with everybody agreeing to it, because that would be the only method for survival that anyone could think of. I’d even agree to it, because there’s just no other alternatives right now.
— Noam Chomsky, Understanding Power, 2002
This faux eco-movement is still at the left fringe of US politics, while the right wing is more determined to burn every last drop of oil before Jesus gets back. Maybe it will take a testimonial from "Space Jesus" to tilt the balance of public opinion?
 
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Thank you, Jerry, for the Manufacturing of Greta Thunberg link and for the Wrong Kinda Green website. While I knew of corporate sponsoring for Al Gore I was not aware that 350.org was in the same category. Though I should have known, as I had already dumped a former link to Avaaz news when it began spouting hate against Assad in Syria on behalf of the FSA, ISIS in disguise!

Yours faithfully
Claude

CCS (Carbon Capture and Storage) is of course bunk since the CO2 will readily be released by earth tremors etc. Haven't these people ever heard of trees? I note that Greta Thunberg's claim to fame is that she is a descendant of Svante Arrhenius who discovered CO2 rise from industrialization in the first place. Note too that global warming began in 1977, the year Martin Heidegger died, having preached against Western technology for decades.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Somewhere in my library I have a book about the late Armand Hammer, the provocative leader of Occidental Petroleum. Al Gore's father was known as being Hammer's US senator, and thus garnered a ton of Occidental stock, which Al Jr. inherited. At some point Occidental got into some violent issues with an indigenous tribe in Columbia, and Gore Jr. managed to side-step complaints that he was quite aware of what was going on.

Hammer, of course, was an interesting figure based upon his long ties to the USSR and Nixon. But then, regarding doing business with the USSR, there were many other 'capitalists' like the rabidly anti-Semitic Henry Ford.

This is how the underlying imperium operates, with such as 'controlled opposition' fronts.

There is a claim that Man Made Global Warming began around 8,000 years ago when post-Ice Age humans began organized rice farming and agriculture motivated deforestation. Its also interesting to note that the famous Joseph story about the 7 years of feast and 7 years of famine (leading to the Egyptian implementation of feudalism in Genesis 47) seems based upon the realities of short term weather patterns that are found to have driven the waves of emigration into and out of Mesopotamia and Europe for thousands of years. This is well discussed by Brian Fagan in his The Long Summer, which posits that the present Holocene interglacial period is artificially long.

Waves of emigration into and out of Mesopotamia and Europe?
 
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Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
More discussions of global warming & climate change can be found at these old threads:

https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/the-winger-effect-is-effecting-you.10

https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/co2-climate-change-who-is-the-real-deniers.1574

It seems that I'm in a minority at this site. Most Postflavians over the last few years have argued that the "Man Made Global Warming" threat is greatly exaggerated.

Whereas I would point out that there's no question that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have skyrocketed over the past several decades, and I don't think the consequences of this experiment are fully understood yet. And, it's basic science that CO2 is, in fact, a greenhouse gas that can cause the temperature of the earth to increase.

I think that the IPCC projections are very much middle-road estimates. Perhaps the so-called "denialists" like Patrick Moore are correct to argue that nothing unusual is going on; but I think it's just as likely that alarmists like James Hansen and Guy McPherson might be correct, and that increased CO2 levels could lead to runaway feedback effects.

When it comes to Patrick Moore, the video touts his credentials as a "co-founder of Greenpeace". Greenpeace categorically states that this is a flat-out falsehood, and that Moore is actually an industry lobbyist.

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/news/greenpeace-statement-on-patric/

Patrick Moore Does Not Represent Greenpeace
Patrick Moore has been a paid spokesman for a variety of polluting industries for more than 30 years, including the timber, mining, chemical and the aquaculture industries. Most of these industries hired Mr. Moore only after becoming the focus of a Greenpeace campaign to improve their environmental performance. Mr. Moore has now worked for polluters for far longer than he ever worked for Greenpeace....
Patrick Moore Did Not Found Greenpeace
Patrick Moore frequently portrays himself as a founder or co-founder of Greenpeace, and many news outlets have repeated this characterization. Although Mr. Moore played a significant role in Greenpeace Canada for several years, he did not found Greenpeace. Phil Cote, Irving Stowe, and Jim Bohlen founded Greenpeace in 1970. Patrick Moore applied for a berth on the Phyllis Cormack in March, 1971 after the organization had already been in existence for a year. A copy of his application letter and Greenpeace’s response are available here (PDF).
Here's a very nice, detailed rebuttal of Moore's climate change video:

 

CplCam

Member
It seems that I'm in a minority at this site. Most Postflavians over the last few years have argued that the "Man Made Global Warming" threat is greatly exaggerated.

Whereas I would point out that there's no question that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have skyrocketed over the past several decades, and I don't think the consequences of this experiment are fully understood yet. And, it's basic science that CO2 is, in fact, a greenhouse gas that can cause the temperature of the earth to increase.
If "they" say the climate is changing dangerously the opposite must be true. Of course some post Flavians have used the same rationale to argue that the earth is flat so...

Personally I accept pascale's wager on climate change. If the theory is false and we acct like it's true then we'll have cleaned up our environment and revolutionized cheap, green energy "for nothing." Whereas if it's true and we don't act we all burn in hell (or something like that.)
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
It seems that I'm in a minority at this site. Most Postflavians over the last few years have argued that the "Man Made Global Warming" threat is greatly exaggerated.

Whereas I would point out that there's no question that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have skyrocketed over the past several decades, and I don't think the consequences of this experiment are fully understood yet. And, it's basic science that CO2 is, in fact, a greenhouse gas that can cause the temperature of the earth to increase.
This is yet another field where it is very difficult for the average person to determine what is real. If 97% of scientists agree on MMGW, then 3% of degree'd, acreditted scientists at least have some doubts. You and I helped convert a photovoltaic materials physicist from a believer into a doubter. It doesn't help when the IPCC had its own email scandal (about data extrapolation or fudging), and the dubious nature of some of its backers (beyond Gore).

Besides GW, we have enough problems with religious and non-religious motivated overpopulation, pollution, massive corruption, income inequality, etc.. And like the Flat Earth issue, remember we had a problem here with our suggesting that maybe we didn't need so many babies that God supposedly wants for some reason. The Wall Street market economy needs ever more babies.

What would happen to GW if suddenly we stopped covering our glaciers and polar caps with carbon soot? What if .... ?
 
Man-made global warming (MMGW) is very real in Australia. The worst drought in NSW's history - only starting to break now - has convinced even previously global warming denialist farmers of the reality of global warming. Warm temperatures in May lead to delayed planting of winter wheat crops - and the failure of the winter rains in the last two years in NSW led to the importation of hay not merely from South Australia but Western Australia, most of this being hauled by truck. Given your November fires in California I thought most people there would agree with global warming as real. The only substantial point the deniers have is over methane (CH4), since it essentially decays within 10 years of its release into the atmosphere, its rise from human activities confusing and often exaggerating the global warming signal.

However, the question of the 350.org is very concerning. In post #4 the 'Scurrying Fascist Cockroaches' article indeed reveals 350.org's control by elites who wish to privatize natural resources under their capitalist institutions which oppose fossil fuels categorically. But no-one else has any money to fund an alternative proposal - let alone of a Georgist kind. Hence, our future lies in a splitting up of the elites as multinational organizations fight amongst themselves for control (fossil fuel companies versus anti-fossil fuel companies & organizations fighting for predominance, even with certain board members no doubt in common on both sides). And so even Chomsky admits that fascist rule may then be the only alternative. Hence 350.org itself could readily fracture internally as the difficulties mount, leading to very new opportunities.

But is this a surprise? Has democracy ever worked anywhere - other than being led by demagogues or mere transient mob rule?

Yours faithfully
Claude

PS: Our polar caps and glacier are being covered by carbon soot much less now than 50 years ago - due to improved technology decreasing the number and use of home chimneys and increasing technological efficiency at thermal power stations. CO2 is the global warming factor; soot in contrast comprises C60 in the main, i.e. buckyball-shaped carbon molecules, so is quite distinct and a sign of incomplete combustion. Soot falling on a glacier would indeed enhance its melting due to soot absorbing the sun's heat - but the corollary is that the soot is soon washed off the glacier by the meltwater.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Given your November fires in California I thought most people there would agree with global warming as real.
Did you mean GW or MMGW?

In any case, I agree with CplCam's position, let's act like MMGW (and GW) is real and see if we can garner some wide societal benefits at the same time.

Since you are a once aspiring astronomer, is it correct that chimpigs or other 'agencies' are also warming the other planets of our solar system? Or is this fake news, like I was 'Horn' swoggled about the LUCIFER telescope?

However, the question of the 350.org is very concerning. In post #4 the 'Scurrying Fascist Cockroaches' article indeed reveals 350.org's control by elites who wish to privatize natural resources under their capitalist institutions which oppose fossil fuels categorically. But no-one else has any money to fund an alternative proposal - let alone of a Georgist kind. Hence, our future lies in a splitting up of the elites as multinational organizations fight amongst themselves for control (fossil fuel companies versus anti-fossil fuel companies & organizations fighting for predominance, even with certain board members no doubt in common on both sides). And so even Chomsky admits that fascist rule may then be the only alternative. Hence 350.org itself could readily fracture internally as the difficulties mount, leading to very new opportunities.
Back in the days of yore, such as fascists, socialists, or communists would ironically (in some cases) 'nationalize' resources and/or industries as they perceived their respective national interests. As such, I have wondered if such 'nationalization' would be scaled up to 'globalization'. Hmmm, the globalization of global resources or industries justified by a global crisis. All this while crass individual others are trying to achieve crass market uhmmm ... 'globalization'.

Briefly touched on this forum has been the optimal deployment of 'capital', as to who or what agency deploys capital. As such 'states', such as the conservative American state of North Dakota, which has a state bank chartered to deploy capital to its citizens, might be better suited to such a cause than more traditional banks with more selfish 'or other' interests.

Of course, zealous 'nationalists' would oppose any such efforts and agencies, many sure that some preferred non-human agency will save them one way or another. This begs the question of whether or not Dogod helps those who help themselves or not? And then, who will save us from these zealous nationalists?
PS: Our polar caps and glacier are being covered by carbon soot much less now than 50 years ago - due to improved technology decreasing the number and use of home chimneys and increasing technological efficiency at thermal power stations. CO2 is the global warming factor; soot in contrast comprises C60 in the main, i.e. buckyball-shaped carbon molecules, so is quite distinct and a sign of incomplete combustion. Soot falling on a glacier would indeed enhance its melting due to soot absorbing the sun's heat - but the corollary is that the soot is soon washed off the glacier by the meltwater.
I brought up soot as just one example of many, hence the "..." . That said, don't forget that such soot, and ash, and dust, also changes the reflective albedo of Earth's remaining glaciers.
 
Claude B said:
Given your November fires in California I thought most people there would agree with global warming as real.
Did you mean GW or MMGW?

In any case, I agree with CplCam's position, let's act like MMGW (and GW) is real and see if we can garner some wide societal benefits at the same time.
...
...don't forget that such soot, and ash, and dust, also changes the reflective albedo of Earth's remaining glaciers.
I meant MMGW but I have to admit that many of these people, as in Australia, consider GW to be some occult natural phenomenon - but still in need of some kind of solution.
That present day GW is MM is clear both from the cooling of the sun (revealed by diminished sunspots) which effect has merely delayed the severity of global warming, and by global dimming where sulfates and other 'soot' released into the atmosphere by industry have blocked some of the sunlight reaching earth, the effect overcome by GW (which may yet prove to be due to the transient CH4 component*). Actual soot, ash and dust on glaciers has only a transient effect until washed out by melting, though I admit that recent post-industrial glacial ice would be 'sootier' than earlier historical ice deposits which are now also melting.
Since you are a once aspiring astronomer, is it correct that chimpigs or other 'agencies' are also warming the other planets of our solar system? Or is this fake news, like I was 'Horn' swoggled about the LUCIFER telescope?
I'd have to say that a general warming of solar system planets is a fantasy despite the collective efforts of alien chimps, pigs and celestial Trump-clones.

Yours faithfully
Claude

*Personally, I believe that the GW component of increased high-altitude cirrus clouds associated with extreme heat but not heralding a warm front are due to this excess methane, due to the fact that CH4 is lighter than H2O so quickly rises up to the level of the highest clouds, presumably interacting with the water vapor there. However I have not checked recent research on this.
 
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Suchender

Member
Hannes Alfven's ideas are pioneering - but he cannot be invoked for Global Warming. The claim that other solar system planets are warming in synchrony with the earth is a baseless claim.

Just because one conspiracy theory is wrong doesn't mean all others are too.
I agree on your last point ! Just from where comes your idea of a 'conspiracy theory', Claude, when the subject is physics ?!

The point of the presentation was NOT about the warming of other planets of the Solar System, Claude ! It was something completely different, LOL

Picking only this other-planet-warming for a reply is not the smart way, Claude !
After reading your other posts I somehow was prepared you would do exactly what you did !
How interesting !
 
Ha ha ha!
Picking only this other-planet-warming for a reply is not the smart way, Claude !
After reading your other posts I somehow was prepared you would do exactly what you did !
How interesting !
:cool: Not even when your "electric solar system" links global warming to electrical current influences from the sun to other solar system planets? Hence your smarter move is to NOT to read whatever I write!

Yours faithfully
Claude
 
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