From Krishna to Christ

[Richard Stanley]

The following video discusses the 'uber', or umbrella, scenario that Christianity ultimately derives from Indian origins, out of the literally apocalyptic collapse of the IVC. This means that, as asserted below, that what is normally considered as highly distinct pertaining to Judaism viz-a-viz Indo-European (Arya) cultures may indeed not be the case. This is implied in the Postflavian False Dialectic of Western Civilization thesis.

As we have discussed here about the Yehud priesthood having been the personal prelature of Amenhotep III, Amenhotep III had Mittani blood. And, contrary to the "official story", possibly the entire 18th Dynasty has Hyksos blood, of which these people brought the chariot to Egypt -- from Aryan lands.

The video occasionally displays one of Gene Matlock's books on the subject, of which one prominent feature is the origins of the Biblical names Abram and Sarah (and Haggar), of which they seem fitting to me as part of the Iranian moral inversion (with Devas vs. Asuras/Ahuras) and the move towards monotheism seen with Zoroastrianism. Thus Abram (cum Abraham) is possibly 'not' Brahman instead of 'a' Brahman. But I could be wrong on this point.

Much of this seems fitting with the thesis of Malati Shendge's Language of the Harrapans, i.e. that there was a heavy or predominate influence of 'Semitic' speaking peoples native to the Indus Valley Culture before its demise. These were then forced to immigrate westwards as the source of what became the Canaanites cum Phoenicians.

As well, there is a brief discussion on the name of the city Harran, the Biblical starting point for Abraham's career. Harran -- Harrapa? And, of course, Harran and Ur(fa) / Edessa is much more than that with our Sabean friends. A link is made to Rome as well, and more.

One thing that Matlock discusses in his book, Jesus and Moses, is that all of this plays out in the wider geographical region once known as 'Bharat' (hence the Mahabharata). And this, as I mentioned, falls apart in the massive cataclysm that struck around 2,000 BCE, religiously attributed to Indra.

The following is a compilation of rock hewn structures in India like that I have never seen before. Whoever made such were 'the' masters of such.

One wonders what types of things may have occurred to cause the IVC cataclysm, perhaps 'just' massive flooding. But, this flooding or whatever caused by what? While not focused on India or Greater Bharat, the following is perhaps instructive on the scale of climate change that occurs via the Earth's relationship to the Sun over time, and, of course, including mankind's activities. Thus, we can see how the Sahara was once verdant, and such regional climates are reflective of similar regional dynamics globally. Thus, we are constantly under this constantly changing stress of the Sun (our God that gives and takes), and which our politicians and institutions have been hiding from us.

 

[Charles Watkins]

As I recall, the Indus Valley is another example of a civilization where the elites came from different roots than the native population. The Indo-Europeans were a widely diversified race and wandered all over. The ones we have our eyes on are often called the Aryans, who turn out to be quite different than the Nazi icon. There are varied theories of their origin with the white supremacists favoring a Scandinavian origin while most scholars think it was the Russian steppes. I would be looking for evidence of high civilization in the North. And I suspect this group turns up again as the Scythians.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Yes, I suspect the head clan of the Scythians, the so-called Royal Saka, may be of high interest to our research. Not the least of which the that the 'Saka' name maybe the source of the name 'Saxon'. This is one reason that I have started to pay attention to the scholar Jason Reza Jorjani on some other recent threads, and he agrees with us on that the Nazi's focus was a gross perversion.

Somewhere in my pre-Postflaviana notes, I have some research to a significant 'Scythian' vector into English nobility besides the 'Norman'. Very interesting. It includes such as the heraldric iconography of the 'white stag'. Such seems consitent with Nicolas DeVere's general origin claims as well.

I hope to soon post an interesting lecture by a scholar on that the Celts were indigenous to the Atlantic coasts of Europe before migrations eastward.

 

[Jerry Russell]

What a great thread. I didn't even notice it when first posted, because I was out on travel.

 

[Seeker]

a significant 'Scythian' vector into English nobility besides the 'Norman'. Very interesting. It includes such as the heraldric iconography of the 'white stag'. Such seems consitent with Nicolas DeVere's general origin claims as well.

The emblem of the Plantagenet King Richard II was the white stag. According to Nicholas de Vere, the Foulques (Fulk) Counts of Anjou, the original Plantagenets, were the younger branch of the de Vere Counts of Anjou, with the same Scythian origin, of course.https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/f022-Stag.htm https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Wilton_diptych2.jpg

 

[Seeker]

Much of this seems fitting with the thesis of Malati Shendge's Language of the Harrapans, i.e. that there was a heavy or predominate influence of 'Semitic' speaking peoples native to the Indus Valley Culture before its demise. These were then forced to immigrate westwards as the source of what became the Canaanites cum Phoenicians.

According to the Book of Jubilees, Peleg, the great-great-great-grandfather of Abraham, married Lomna the daughter of Sina'ar, believed to be the Sinite, 8th son of Canaan, according to Genesis 10:17. Indus Valley origin for "a" Brahman? Canaan, in turn, is believed in Persian tradition to have married Arsal, the daughter of Tiras (Persian and Armenian ancestor), variously described as one of the Sea Peoples, Thracians (Josephus recorded that they were "flame-haired"), and the Etruscans, also Troy and the Taurus mountains were named from him. He was worshipped as the Norse Thor, God of Thunder (aka Perkunos of the Proto-Indo-European pantheon), besides possibly Roman Mars, God of War, plus Hittite Tarhunz, Gaulish Taranis, Slavic Perun, and Vedic Parjanya, among other derivatives. Proto-Indo-European origin theories include the genetic Kurgan hypothesis, and the Kurgan cultural monuments coincide with those of the Scythian-Saka-Siberian monuments. I think that Postflaviana may be on to something, going by my own rather sketchy rudimentary research.

 

[Seeker]

So the Brotherhood of Saturn was originally the Brotherhood of SHIVA, and the Illuminati is actually Indian in origin, definitely something to think about!

 

[Seeker]

Yes, I suspect the head clan of the Scythians, the so-called Royal Saka, may be of high interest to our research. Not the least of which the that the 'Saka' name maybe the source of the name 'Saxon'.

British Israelism is big on this, claiming that "Saxon/Sacae" derives from "(I)saac's sons", that the captive Israelites eventually dispersed to Scythia, from there migrated west to Europe, became the "Saxons", and, with the Angles, invaded England later on.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Yes, British-Israelism -- and the Orange Street Congregationalist Church. The Skull and Bones Bush clan were originally out of the Congregationalist Church, as many early leaders of the S&B were Congregationalist clergy. Researchers on the S&B have reported close esoteric ties to OG Saxon land, Germany. And if my failing memory is serving me correctly, the Congregationalists got their denominational launch in the London branch of the 'sabean' House of Savoy.

 

[Seeker]

Nothing wrong with your memory, the 1661 "Savoy Conference" was held on land granted by Plantagenet King Henry III to his wife's uncle, Peter, Count of Savoy, and thus Henry's marriage added the Savoy bloodline to his Plantagenet descendants, including the Skull and Bone Bush Presidents and President William Howard Taft, whose father was one of the Skull and Bones founders and was said to be descended from the Earl of Uxbridge. There have been stories that the Yale "Skull and Bones" is actually the second secret society using that name, and is also a branch of the Illuminati (Indian?), the first Skull and Bones being founded by German university alumni after the original Weishaupt Illuminati was suppressed.

 

[Seeker]

Arsal, the daughter of Tiras

Actually, Arsal was the granddaughter of Tiras and the daughter of Batawil. Tiras was a son of Japheth, who is remembered in the ancient Sanskrit vedas of India as Pra-Japati. Of course the Biblical Japheth supposedly emerged from the Ark on Mt. Ararat, which forms a near-quadripoint between Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Iran. His son Magog was the progenitor of the Scythians, according to Josephus, and just by coincidence, the Skull and Bones nickname assigned to future President George H. W. Bush was "Magog", which had also been given previously to future President William Howard Taft and his son the future Senator Robert Taft. Interestingly enough, one of the ritual proceedings of Skull and Bones is for the initiate to kiss the the slippered toe of the "Pope".

 

[Claude Badley]

Greetings Charles Watkins!

As I recall, the Indus Valley is another example of a civilization where the elites came from different roots than the native population. The Indo-Europeans were a widely diversified race and wandered all over. The ones we have our eyes on are often called the Aryans, who turn out to be quite different than the Nazi icon. There are varied theories of their origin with the white supremacists favoring a Scandinavian origin while most scholars think it was the Russian steppes. I would be looking for evidence of high civilization in the North. And I suspect this group turns up again as the Scythians.

The most important yet very odd feature of the Aryans is that their culture is now shown to be a home-grown one of India, although we are not yet able to read the Indus-Sarasvati script due to the small size of recovered remnants.

The Aryans are the name of the super-tribe of people that lived along the Indus River then pushed their way along the Ganges. The evidence of their origin seems contradictory. Those of higher caste are lighter-colored and have more European-like ancestry in their genes. The major Indian language, Hindi, is also Indo-European in structure and so is evidence of a migration into India at some ancient time in the past - commonly called 'The Aryan Invasion'.

It was fantasized that this Aryan Invasion led to the caste system by the enslavement of the locals - e.g. that by Houston Stewart Chamberlain. However, this cannot be true, because there is not a proper equivalent elsewhere else in the world. The caste system presumes some sort of pre-existing civilization already, as opposed to the tribal lifestyle evident everywhere in India until about 3,000 BC. However the invasion of India by the Aryans we now know to be about 5,000 BC, when the Black Sea was flooded from the Mediterranean, driving the populace out in all directions. Indian cattle too, intimate to the caste system, are Brahmin cattle, and they are a local breed not a European one.

Compared to European beef cattle breeds, Brahmin cattle (like Zebu in Africa) have short hair, big floppy ears, longer legs and a hump on the back - all of which help the animal to resist overheating as well as being infested with fewer cattle ticks. We have both types in Australia.

In contrast, the caste system of India arose thousands of years later than the Aryan invasion, and arose from a natural disaster - the sudden disappearance of the Sarasvati River leading to the stratification of mankind along an original and obviously highly effective system of government - via reincarnation, with cows slotted in as the second best form of human life, before Kshatriyas (3rd), Vaisyas (4th), the Sudra majority (5th) and Dalits along with rest of the human race. But, incredibly, books on the subject do NOT link the loss of this river and its irrigation system to the origin of caste.

The Egyptian association with India is also very real as you highlight. For example there is an abandoned pyramid complex called Zawyat al-Aryan!

Yours faithfully
Claude Badley

 

[Charles Watkins]

I return your greetings, Claude Badley!

It was fantasized that this Aryan Invasion led to the caste system by the enslavement of the locals - e.g. that by Houston Stewart Chamberlain. However, this cannot be true, because there is not a proper equivalent elsewhere else in the world. The caste system presumes some sort of pre-existing civilization already, as opposed to the tribal lifestyle evident everywhere in India until about 3,000 BC.

Thanks for the update on the Aryan Invasion. Also for the info on the cattle -- I don't live far from the King Ranch in South Texas, where the Brahmin was bred with the Short Horn to produce the Santa Gertrudis. But the possibility I would like to explore is that there did indeed exist a lost high civilization (Tibet?) with an established caste system and that its survivors became the Indus elites.

 

[Jerry Russell]

Georges Dumezil argued that the word roots denoting the Indian caste system could be found among diverse other cultures with Indo-European linguistic roots. And thus, according to his controversial Trifunctional Hypothesis, that the caste system probably dates back to the common origins of the Indo-European languages. Which would be, most likely, the Kurgan culture and its predecessors.

As I wrote in my article "Indo-European Origins of the Flavian System" on this site:

Dumezil’s work makes it clear that in addition to racial and technological factors, a sophisticated political ideology was also a major aspect of Indo-European militarism.​

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His basic framework was the tripart caste model of social organization, characteristically displayed in the Indian case: Brahman (priest / king), kshatriya (warrior), vaishya (agriculture / trade). Dumezil’s “Mitra-Varuna” is focused on a study of the priestly class, while “The Destiny of the Warrior” which seems to be a similar study of the kshatriya.​

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Dumezil views the priestly / royal function in terms of a series of complementary pairs. The first pair is Flamen / Luperci. The Flamen in Roman society represented a principle of stability and order within the ordained hierarchy. The rule of the Flamen (along with the Rex, the Senate and so forth) is unchallenged except for a festival day, the Februatio, when naked young equestrians called Luperci frolic through the streets, carrying out sacrificial ceremonies and “making women fertile.” Dumezil argues that the Luperci represent a primitive, orgiastic aspect of the priesthood which could not be suppressed entirely, therefore it had to be allowed to emerge for its day. Dumezil argues that this same duality is manifested in the “historical” figures of Romulus and Numa, with Romulus presenting the wild untamed energy of creation, and Numa representing the institution of law, order, property and hierarchy. And in the realm of Roman gods, Dumezil finds this same duality in the two aspects of Jupiter, which he claims are Jupiter Summanis and Dius Fidius. Sumannis is the one with the thunderbolts, while Jupiter’s aspect as Dius Fidius represents law and contracts, like the Flamen.​

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Having established this structure as a fundamental construct of Roman religion and civil life, Dumezil goes on to show parallels in other Indo-European cultures. He shows an amazing series of detailed parallels between the Flamen and the Vedic Brahman: they cannot swear oaths; they cannot be involved in warfare; they cannot ride horseback; they must avoid funerals; they are subject to similar taboos on oil for anointment, and on raw meat, and dogs; they must not be naked, or see their wives naked; both conduct religious ceremonies together with their wives; and both are dressed in white. They are paired with the rex and the raj, respectively — regal executives who are dressed in red. And finally, as the Flamen stand in complementary opposition to the Luperci, Dumezil finds that the Brahmin have a similar counterpart in the Gandharva. The Gandharva were a mythical brotherhood of men with horses’ heads who drank a lot of soma, and exercised the droit du seigneur with every bride. Dumezil argues that from a linguistic perspective, the words flamen-brahman, rex-raj, feruatio-gandharva are all cognates, and although he admits that the sound changes aren’t perfectly regular, he states that other widely accepted cognate sets are just as irregular.​

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In the Vedic and Avestan pantheons, Dumezil argues that the pairs of Mitra - Varuna and Mithra - Ahura Mazda are analogous to Jupiter - Dius Fidius. He also argues that Vedic Manu is cognate to Latin Numa, as well as many other man forms across Indo-European societies. Dumezil sees some Greek parallels as well (for example, gandharva - centaur) but shies away from making a comprehensive case, ironically stating that some of his earlier works had addressed this and been (unjustly?) shot down by critics.​

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There are also with Celtic, Germanic and Nordic analogies for these same aspects. Dumezil equates thunderous Odhinn / Wodhinaz / Othinus with Jupiter, and stately Tyr / Tiwaz / Ollerus with Dius Fidius. In these legends, Odhinn has lost one eye in return for his magical powers, and Tyr has lost his arm as a result of a deception which tricked the enemy into defeat.​

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Amusingly, Dumezil notes that both deities represent a priestly power to win wars without resorting to fighting a fair fight on the battlefield: Odhinn through the power of psychological intimidation and propaganda, and Tyr through deceptive use of diplomacy and legalistic trickery.​

 

[Seeker]

Proto-Indo-European origin theories include the genetic Kurgan hypothesis, and the Kurgan cultural monuments coincide with those of the Scythian-Saka-Siberian monuments. I think that Postflaviana may be on to something, going by my own rather sketchy rudimentary research.

Exactly what I was reading, but here is the kicker, if everybody originally was "Out of Africa", does this mean that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were Africans as well, once upon a time, and did these Africans export a caste system with them as they migrated, or was that a holdover from the "mythical" Atlantis?

 

[Claude Badley]

A good question Seeker!

Exactly what I was reading, but here is the kicker, if everybody originally was "Out of Africa", does this mean that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were Africans as well, once upon a time, and did these Africans export a caste system with them as they migrated, or was that a holdover from the "mythical" Atlantis?

The out-of-Africa story of human evolution has undergone major modification. Originally it was claimed that human mtDNA had solely an African ancestor about 200,000-300,000 years ago, excluding the earlier large-brow-ridged archaic humans who migrated 2,000,000 years ago from Africa. However new studies show the present of archaic genes in modern populations outside Afriancs.

The proto Indo-Europeans - which is a linguistic classification - are very recent, within the last 8,000 years. The Indian caste system is of local origin however, particularly given its distinctive features of cow-worship. I have also come to realize that there were originally only three castes, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra; the Brahmin class only arose later, this being represented in Hindu culture by the overthrow of the god Indra "who hated dark skin", perhaps due to the effect of the Krishna movement which subverted the older Hindu tradition, if that movement is actually older than Brahmanism.

Indo-Europeans, or Caucasians generally, have some archaic DNA of their own - deriving from Neanderthals and less so from Denisovans. Significant Caucasian features are of archaic human origin e.g. long nose and blue eyes.

(As for Atlantis, if not under the volcanic deposits of Thira, it remains only in Timaeus and Critias, and represents a Platonic attempt to escape the negative influences of timarchy, tyranny, oligarchy and - especially - democracy.)

Yours faithfully
Claude

 

[Seeker]

(As for Atlantis, if not under the volcanic deposits of Thira, it remains only in Timaeus and Critias, and represents a Platonic attempt to escape the negative influences of timarchy, tyranny, oligarchy and - especially - democracy.)

The reason I brought up Atlantis is because the ancient Berbers of North Africa apparently believed that they were descended from those supposed Atlanteans, having among their gods Atlas, believed to be the first King of Atlantis and also King of Mauretania, along with his father Poseidon, the Chief God of Atlantis, and of course the Atlantic Ocean and the Atlas Mountains of North Africa were named after him. Have you a theory as to where those Berbers actually originated, perhaps as indigenous North Africans who much later did intermingle with the colonizing Phoenicians of Carthage and then the conquering Romans of said Carthage?

 

[Claude Badley]

Yes, you are right! I now have to admit that perhaps "Atlantis" is an ironic reference...

The reason I brought up Atlantis is because the ancient Berbers of North Africa apparently believed that they were descended from those supposed Atlanteans, having among their gods Atlas, believed to be the first King of Atlantis and also King of Mauretania, along with his father Poseidon, the Chief God of Atlantis, and of course the Atlantic Ocean and the Atlas Mountains of North Africa were named after him. Have you a theory as to where those Berbers actually originated, perhaps as indigenous North Africans who much later did intermingle with the colonizing Phoenicians of Carthage and then the conquering Romans of said Carthage?

… to some massive civilization in the Sahara that died out with the increasing dryness since the Ice Age.

The Berber today also use an alphabetic symbol identical to the kanaga symbol used by the Dogon, so have many roots, all pre-Islamic.

http://www.kanaga.tv/story/symbol.html

Yours faithfully
Claude

 

[Seeker]

The Berber today also use an alphabetic symbol identical to the kanaga symbol used by the Dogon, so have many roots, all pre-Islamic.

Ah Yes, differing origin stories for Atlantis and the Berbers posit the arrival of aliens from either Sirius, Orion, or Draco (the Berbers also had a god Draco), and of course the Atlanteans spread across North Africa to Egypt after the destruction of their land, and a couple of the Egyptian dynasties were in fact Berber, called Libyan at the time, I believe, so one can string all of this together "coherently" and make a good story out of it!

 

[Richard Stanley]

Claude is also going to tell you that he has Captain Nemo's submarine and has exhaustively used it to examine the seafloors that are less than 400 feet deep for evidence of human civilizations. He found nothing so he says.

Interestingly, sheerly a random coincidence, Plato provides the general time for the end of the last Ice Age as being the time that Atlantis submerged under the seas. The liar, who also provides the basis for Claude's desired caste system (remarkably the same as Xian feudalism), claimed that Solon(?) acquired this (fake) knowledge and timeframe from the Egyptian priests of the day.

Thera / Santorini has no resemblance to Plato's account other than the remains of the volcano being circular and the typical crater cone in the center. This event does seem certain to have caused the phenomenon described on the so-called Tempest Stele accorded to Ahmose I and the Hyksos exodus period, one of two separate bases of the Biblical Exodus account.

A likely candidate for the Atlantis region is the small triangular tectonic plate around the current Azore Islands. There are also other candidates, and there seems to be a small, ringed, satellite city discovered on a river in Spain just north of Cadiz. This is likely the site of the Biblical Tarshish, and there is supporting evidence of ancient metal mining in the surrounding region.