From Cleopatra to Christ

[Seeker]

As much as I am enjoying this, I must give some constructive criticism about Ralph Ellis at this point. I could provide more detail, but wish to make a long story short for this posting. In Part 1 of the posted video, about 20 minutes from the end, I think that Mr. Ellis is letting his imagination getting carried away a bit when he states that the New Testament says that Jesus was crucified in a "purple cloak", it does not say that, but he probably was mocked with one before being stripped for crucifixion. OK, I am nitpicking in that case, but, intentionally or not, Mr. Ellis is also conflating people and events, because the "Basilides", who presented Vespasian with the "oracle" in Alexandria in AD 69, could not be the "Jesus" who was taken down from the cross at Jerusalem in AD 70 by the intervention of Josephus (of Arimathea) with Titus. Jesus could not have been taken to Alexandria after his crucifixion to see Vespasian, who was already in Rome by AD 70 as Emperor. However, if I may try to save this story for him, Jesus may well have negotiated a deal with Titus after being taken down from the cross, with Josephus as the mediator, and then sent to Rome with Josephus to actually meet Emperor Vespasian for his final approval.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Yes, such as anachronisms and other matters are the things which must be waded through. Another good example is Ellis's inference that Josephus and Paul are the same person. One possible objection to this theory is that their chronologies don't match, especially during their youth and old age. But the obvious reply is that one or more of those narratives of youth and/or old age has been falsified.

According to the New Testament, the story of Paul begins where the story of Saul ends, at the epiphany. Not the least of the amazing parallels between Paul and Josephus, is that the story of Josephus also begins when the story of Paul ends. Yet another remarkable nexus is the close associations with the imperial court, in the same time frame. Biblical literalists are asking us to buy into a truly incredible coincidence theory.

As for the cloak, I must have been nodding off (a frequent problem these days), and I will watch this again. Did he provide a verse?

I have mentioned the supposed ephod of Jesus several times. This cannot be the same as a purple cloak, but they are related, one for a spiritual messiahship and the other for a secular kingship messiah, hence INRI on the cross, and hence the occasionally heard term dual messiahship.

James Carroll relates the story, in his Constantine's Sword, about the showing of the ephod in 1933 to honor the rise of Hitler, and I find it interesting that Hitler did not attend, but sent von Papen in his stead. Carroll was present, as a boy, at the next showing of the ephod in 1959, and von Papen, now a Papal Chamberlain, was again in attendance. The reason I bring this up here, is that the subtext of Constantine's Sword is proof that the Roman Church elites have wittingly maintained a cynically profitable, dialectic foil relationship with Judaism ... from the beginning till today (same for Islam). People who maintian otherwise are either deluding themselves or others.

[Edited by JR 8/16/2019 at Ruby Gray's request]

 

[Seeker]

No, Ellis did not mention a verse, he just said in the New Testament, and was probably reciting this from memory and made a mistake, I do the same thing (lol)! To me it is no biggie, and I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, upon reflection. I did feel obligated, however, for the sake of clarity, to mention the conflation of Basilides with Jesus, as that seemed to be an important part of his presentation. For what it is worth, I am imaginative also, and could make up a theory of Basilides (Jesus?) being wounded in battle, captured, and brought to Vespasian in Alexandria in 69, where he in effect says "You win, you're the Emperor now". Vespasian lets him go in peace, on his honor (in the style of the famed clemency of Julius Caesar), but Jesus does a double cross and goes back to fighting Titus after Vespasian departs for Rome to become Emperor. After the fall of Jerusalem in 70, Jesus pays for his "treachery" with crucifixion by Titus, but their mutual friend Josephus gets him off the hook. However, although his life is spared, Titus and his father Vespasian take no more chances with Jesus, and he suffers the penalty of life imprisonment in the farthest corner of the Empire, separated from his family, while Josephus and his propaganda team turn Titus into what Jesus tried to be, for popular consumption. If they let Jesus know that they were doing this, it was perhaps the cruelest punishment that they could inflict upon him, to let him live, and to know that not only had he lost his kingdom, but also his identity, forever. On the other hand, it may have been part of the deal at Alexandria, that after the eventual fall of Jerusalem, a "double" (as you mentioned) would be publicly crucified as a warning, and then later "rescued" by Josephus.

 

[Richard Stanley]

In has been a considerable time since I read Jewish War, and so maybe I must re-read it again, so correct me here if I am wrong:

I thought that when Josephus came riding back from Tekoa(?) through the Kidron Valley and saw his three friends on their crosses, that the siege of Jerusalem had still to be finished. And as Ellis has mentioned, that there was a considerable pause in the war - during this time that Vespasian was waiting in Alexandria to await the outcomes of the homeland 'civil war' to confirm him as emperor. And then Titus went back to Jerusalem to finish the siege and destruction of the Temple, to be followed by another 3.5 years culminating at Masada.

Therefore, during this interval period, 'someone' (from the cross or whomever) could be brought forth to Alexandria.

 

[Seeker]

In support of Vespasian releasing Jesus at Alexandria, Suetonius describes Basilides as his "freedman", although this may be a transcription error.

 

[Seeker]

You just may be right, it has been some time since I read it also. Suetonius states that immediately after Basilides appeared to Vespasian, Vespasian received intelligence that the troops of Vitellius had been defeated at Cremona (Oct. 24, 69) and that Vitellius was slain (Dec. 22, 69). If Josephus freed the crucified men before this, then it could have happened the way that you say. So far to me, it looks as though the troops of Vespasian proclaimed him Emperor in July of 69, and that as a consequence of this, Josephus was freed, so it certainly could work out that way.

 

[Seeker]

This is very tricky, but in his "Life" Josephus relates that he was sent with Titus to the siege of Jerusalem, would this be when Vespasian turned command over to Titus and went to Rome? Also, "when the city Jerusalem was taken by force", and "when my country was destroyed", he asked Titus for the liberty of his family, not long after that for his brother and fifty friends, then for about 190 friends and acquaintances held captive in the Temple, and finally, when he was sent by Titus to Thecoa, as you correctly recalled, on the way back he saw many captives crucified, and recognized three acquaintances, whom he appealed to Titus to have taken down, which occurred. I hope you are right, but it looks as though all of this happened when Josephus was with Titus, after Vespasian had departed for Rome. So far I can find no definite date for when Josephus was at Thecoa.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Wasn't Vespasian at the first part of the siege, so that when Johanan ben Zakkai was unrolled from his carpet, he could proclaim Vespasian as to become the next emperor? Then:

after Vespasian had departed for Rome

Or, after Vespasian had departed for Alexandria, before departing for Rome? Then the break in the war resumes with Titus and Josephus returning to attend it. It was during this break in the war that Atwill's Cannibal Mary eats her son, hungry from the long siege.

BTW, these family and friends of Josephus are what Flavio Barbiero claims, in his The Secret Society of Moses, to be the formative kernel of the new cult of Mithra, which I have separately tried to reconcile and synthesize in my From Chrest to Christ thread. Barbiero, correctly (IMHO), claims that the cult of Mithra acted to the nascent Roman 'Church', at least, as Freemasonry and latter-day Catholic equivalents (SMOM and Knights of Columbus) have done more recently for exoteric Christianity.

 

[Seeker]

Yes, Vespasian was at Jerusalem when Yohanan be Zakkai was smuggled out in a coffin and predicted that he would become Emperor, and when Vespasian went to Alexandria, before going to Rome, Titus was put in charge of the war. Are you thinking that Josephus was ambiguous about when he rescued those three captives, and that there was a window of time when the survivor (Jesus?) could have been sent to Vespasian? Josephus was sent by Titus to Thecoa in the first place "in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp", would this imply that the siege was still under way?

 

[Seeker]

I have read "The Secret Society of Moses", and must remember your thread for the future. Also, I have read "Rulers of Evil", do you have a thread for that too?

 

[Richard Stanley]

Are you thinking that Josephus was ambiguous about when he rescued those three captives, and that there was a window of time when the survivor (Jesus?) could have been sent to Vespasian?

I can't really remember the exact chronology, so I must re-read this. But, right now I am fixated on Carotta's related "Final Observations" in Jesus was Caesar, thanks to Charles comment.

Josephus was sent by Titus to Thecoa in the first place "in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp", would this imply that the siege was still under way?

Also, I have read "Rulers of Evil", do you have a thread for that too?

No, but I discuss it frequently on various threads and blog posts. You can do a search.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Carotta's comments regarding Paul and Josephus are on page 333 of JESUS WAS CAESAR (1999). He references Bruno Bauer, a 19th Century philosopher.

Thanks to Charles, my attention has been brought back to Carotta's Jesus was Caesar, the chapter of his Final Observations. Here, Carotta laid out a mechanism, or figurative road map, for the Historiae of Asinius Pollio to first become the 'gospels' for the Divii Iulia, then becoming the template texts for 'someone' later to convert into the canonic Christian Gospels. Thus, Carotta suspects ... Flavius Josephus. This scenario being rather compatible with Gary Courtney's thesis in Et tu Judas. If this is true, then we can easily guess why this work of Pollio is no longer extant.

In re-reading the chapter from the beginning, I came upon some paragraphs which I excerpt below, and how they might relate to what was going on at the Dewa Victrix fortress -- besides being a place a secret exile for King Agbarus, aka 'Jesus'.

In examining these paragraphs keep in mind that the fortress's Legio II Adiutrix was composed of 'marines' specially selected for the job. Also, that unlike today's militaries, unless there were underlying reasons to move them the Romans liked to keep their legions in place, and then to have retiring legionaries colonize either that area around their old fort, or be settled in some other specific colony. And, as Carotta opens the chapter, religion is "theo-politics". Same as today.

From Jesus was Caesar, pg. 329:

​

The veterans probably had the greatest and most immediate need for it, especially those who had been led into the settlements. Because they were strangers to the neighboring tribes, called pagans--'villagers'--only the religio castrensis, the religion of the army camp, gave them a sense of security. This was portrayed in the cult of their invincible commander-in-chief who was raised to a God, to whom they owed everything, especially the arable land they were allotted. Thus they knew only one God, Divus Iulius. This made them different from all the neighboring villagers who still venerated their local gods. This was also the basis for later conflict between Christianity and Paganism, the religion of the villagers, misleadingly rendered as 'heathens' by out theologians (however, this was not originally incorrect if it referred to the inhabitants of the heath).​

​

Even though the colonies were all appointed by Caesar, he did not have the time to found them all himself. Later his work was continued by the triumvirate, but, practically speaking, mostly by Octavianus, who claimed this task for himself, knowing that the colonies were a safe reservoir for later recruitments. ....​

​

Carotta goes on to discuss how widespread the practice became, even with post assassination Brutus and post-schism Antony, and even with Herod settling Roman veterans.

Carotta mentions that such as Brutus was allowed funeral honors as Pontifex Maximus, which I did not know. However, Brutus (as Judas forerunner) was present at Julius' home for JC's Last Supper, where Julius merrily joked about his immanent demise. This while Antony whipped the JC funeral crowd into a frenzy by revealing the wounds in the wax figure of JC staged upon a tropaeum, as if Jesus upon his cross. The Jews in attendance wailed the loudest, as JC was indeed their messiah, as Pompey had defiled their temple.

In any case, might we speculate that the tricky Legio II Adiutrix were placed at Dewa, to not just guard Abgarus/Jesus, but to become the secret testbed for establishing the seedcorn of proselytizers for the new universal religion throughout the empire later on? That the legionaries were naval 'marines', and specially selected, seems to fit in well with the later Fish and Anchor imperial iconography of the Flavians, and that this was the primary symbol of Christianity before the cross. It provides a convenient bridge from the symbolism of Castor and Pollux, the twin saviors (especially of sailors) of the prior Greco-Roman age falling out of the Trojan War.

The last of which I just realized that Virgil pronounced, in his 4th Eclogue, that a second Troy was on the horizon. The siege of Jerusalem seems to qualify here. And think of this new Helen that was centrally involved.

 

[Seeker]

In 88 AD. if Jesus was still alive there, the Emperor Domitian ordered the Legio II Adiutrix to the lower Danube, and the Legio XX Valeria Victrix took Its place there, staying for almost two centuries. Some of these soldiers were North Africans, believed to be "E" Haplogroup subclade PF2431, the "cousins" of the PF2546 North African line that is theorized, but not proven, to be descended from King Masinissa, which would lead to the male "Jesus" line if Ralph Ellis is correct. Also, French genealogist and historian Christian Settipani postulated that Tiberius Claudius Balbilus (3-79) was an ancestor of Charlemagne, which could possibly make him my ancestor and anyone else descended from Charlemagne. He was an Alexandrian Greek with Armenian and Median ancestry, a former member of Legio XX, a close friend of the Emperor Claudius who accompanied him to England in 43 AD as a Military Tribune and Commander of the Military Engineers, and also taking part in that campaign was a young Vespasian. He later became an astrological adviser to Nero and his mother, and still later astrologer to Vespasian (his father was the court astrologer and personal friend of the Emperor Tiberius), besides serving as Prefect of Egypt, High Priest of the Temple of Hermes, and Director of the Library. He most certainly must have known Josephus in Rome, and through his aunt his family were cousins to the Emesani dynasty, who married into the Severan dynasty and also the "Jesus" family of Mauretania, if Ralph Ellis is correct.

 

[Seeker]

A preview of "King Jesus" has shown me that Jesus is believed to have lived until 101 AD in Chester, so that the II and then the XX Legions guarded him, and some of his North African "cousins" from the XX Legion that the Flavian Emperor Domitian ordered there may have been with him in his final years in that location. I wonder, were any of these soldiers aware that Jesus was the great-grandson of their Divine Julius? If so, that guard for Jesus may well have been an "honor guard" for a cult center.

 

[Richard Stanley]

Also, French genealogist and historian Christian Settipani postulated that Tiberius Claudius Balbilus (3-79) was an ancestor of Charlemagne, which could possibly make him my ancestor and anyone else descended from Charlemagne. He was an Alexandrian Greek with Armenian and Median ancestry, a former member of Legio XX, a close friend of the Emperor Claudius who accompanied him to England in 43 AD as a Military Tribune and Commander of the Military Engineers, and also taking part in that campaign was a young Vespasian. He later became an astrological adviser to Nero and his mother, and still later astrologer to Vespasian (his father was the court astrologer and personal friend of the Emperor Tiberius), besides serving as Prefect of Egypt, High Priest of the Temple of Hermes, and Director of the Library.

Interesting, indeed.

Yes, the Legio II Adiutrix relocated to a literal new 'Dewa' in then Pannonia. And Barbiero noted that Pannonia was a hotbed for various elites that carried the Flavian name, at least as an honorific, if not more.

If so, that guard for Jesus may well have been an "honor guard" for a cult center.

Seems plausible as well.


My next post here willl discuss Carotta's speculation that it was with the reign of Vespasian that the fictive gospel Jesus was figuratively born. So, he is in alignment with the Flavian origin camp. That late chapter seems to get short shrift, and thus the cause of a lot of unnecessary argument inside the wider Roman Origins tent and via its critics.

 

[Seeker]

That is great news to hear! I had read a preview of "Jesus was Caesar", but it never showed the last part that you are posting about, looking forward to it. Speaking of Pannonia, Settipani also speculates that a 3rd century descendant of Tiberius Claudius Balbilus married Eutropia, whose possible daughter Theodora married the future Roman Emperor Constantius Chlorus, father of Constantine the Great by his previous marriage to Helena, which gave them a relationship to the "Neo-Flavian" Constantinian dynasty.

 

[Charles Watkins]

To me, Vespasian appears to be a figurehead and not the prime mover behind the 'Christ conspiracy', if I may call it that. He was groomed to become a god-king as the re-emerging Imperial cult was replacing the traditional set of Roman gods. (How could these highly intelligent people take the adventures of Jupiter, Mercury, et al seriously?) Clearly Rome needed a new state religion, this time centered totally on the living Emperor. The Imperial cult had been given a setback when Tiberias refused to ascend and had only a faint comeback under Claudius. Now they are stuck with Nero and the end of the Julian line. Epaphroditus could be a key player here. We are looking for a faction with ties to Egypt, which brings us to Caesarion. I have not found a thread here on him, but he is notable as the last Pharoah of Egypt and the divine heir of Julius. With his untimely death, a replacement would be needed.

Following the principle of syncretism, Vespasian would be positioned as the Egyptian god Serapis, the Jewish Messiah, and the Christ of the Chrestians as well as the inheritor of the Julian Imperial cult. These trappings would allow a man of common origins to ascend to godhood and subsequent Emperors would thereby be entitled to rule by divine right.

 

[Seeker]

I am still trying to correlate these people with the different theories of their origin, and "The Secret Society of Moses" by Flavio (love that name!) Barbiero postulates that the family of Constantine the Great were the really original Flavians, descended from Flavius Josephus himself. If one is willing to accept that "Josephus" is another name for Arrius Calpurnius Piso, as Roman Piso has it, then he was also, on his maternal side (according to Piso), a grandnephew of Vespasian and cousin to Titus, besides being descended from the Herodians and the Maccabees (the latter dynasty being the Josephus royal descent from his mother, as he himself claimed), plus an ancestor of Constantine the Great and his family, as Barbiero also indicated. Since I have yet to discover a historical Arrius Calpurnius Piso, could this have been one of the many pseudonyms of Flavius Josephus, a "real" person, instead of the other way around, as Roman Piso has it? Whoever he actually was, "Josephus", in one form or another, seems to be the central character in all of these books I have been reading about the origin of "Jesus", a very intelligent mastermind in all of this. Sometimes I feel as though I am a scholarly squirrel gathering conspiracy "nuts" for my theoretical treasure, but it is such fun!

 

[Richard Stanley]

I like to think of Josephus as a type of Joseph Geobbels (or vice-versa), and that he is willingly playing his propaganda role within the elite Western system of naughty Identity games. As Cyrus H. Gordon noted in his books on the Old Testament, the actions depicted for the Patriarchs show a constant level of Deceit, which for their times was not assigned the moral stance for later Christian sheep society. As I have discussed elsewhere, Deceit (and thus Consciousness of Deception - as an evolved reaction) is recognized by modern science (the Science of Mind) as one aspect of animal intelligence. Birds and bees do it, so why don't (the royal) we (Josephus and the Sabines)?

As to Constantine, I have discussed several times (Simcha Jacobovici's TV episodes) about Constantine's Arch, that it's placement pays homage to the Flavians, e.g. Titus' Arch and Vespasian's Colosseum. But, I don't remember him saying that Constantine descended from Josephus, who accorded himself as a Hasmonean, i.e. a Maccabee. Remember that it was a Hasmonean who traveled to Rome and invited the Romans to play with them against the Seleucids(?). Sound familiar?

Also that Joseph takes after ... Joseph, who colluded with Pharaoh (Gen 47) to manipulate the Egyptian markets to the extent that all free Egyptian (happily) sold themselves into feudal bondage in order to survive this crony capitalism. It would not be long before Europe was placed under just such a system after Roman Christianity took hold.

In any case, I do remember that Barbiero asserts that the family of Josephus took over from the (Sabine) imperial Romans, but he offered up no proof of this. I think it far more likely that these Hasmoneans (and Herodians - Biblical Esau) would have intermarried with noble Sabine families, thus forming what became the inbred Euro-royals and nobility that we know and 'love' today.

The Genesis org chart of the descended tribes of Abraham predicts the later association of the same elites throughout Western history. This is one of the key elements of our OT analysis series on our blog. The False Dialectic of Western Civilization is thus the Mother of all Divide and Conquer ploys. The goal of which is the common subtext of the OT and the NT, global domination. One sees this general modus operandi at work, in a cruder context, with such as the Roma and the Travelers, who have their own religious interpretations for their imitative tribal immorality. But we (happily) let our elites get away with whatever they want, while blaming various 'invaders', who are invading us, because of what our elites have been causing for generations.

Regarding Piso, given the importance of Piso's library and the family's relationship to such as the god, Julius Caesar, it might be that Josephus, a self-proclaimed expert of his Jewish people and culture, was assigned to work with Piso (and others forming an imperial writing team). If Carotta is correct, then the historical corpus of Asinius Pollio, already used in a religious context under the imperial cult, would have needed such an expert on Judaism to salt the Pollio text with such as Judaic prophecies in producing what eventually became the Christian canon (but likely first the Chrestian canon - per Bartram).

 

[Charles Watkins]

Having finally finished Carlotta's JESUS WAS CAESAR, I visited his website carlotta.de to see if he had more. I couldn't read it, but I noticed he has a film called THE GOSPEL OF CAESAR and there appears to be an English language version. I could not find it anywhere on the Internet. Has anyone else here seen it? (Or can someone who knows Danish, go check out the website and see what's up?)