This is not what I was looking for, but picked up along in my search. According to "Roman Piso", Septimius Severus was descended from Arrius Calpurnius Piso, aka "Jesus/Josephus/St. Peter". Another "genealogy" has him descended instead from Roman Emperor Titus, the ultimate Postflavian "Jesus", if my understanding is correct. I do not have the genealogy that you mentioned, of Septimius Severus descended from Cleo Selene, the grandmother of "Jesus", as the pedigree on page 151 of my copy of "Cleopatra to Christ" does not extend all the way to Septimius. Was Septimius descended from this "Jesus" or one of his siblings in the genealogy that you just mentioned? It certainly looks, from what I can ascertain, that his wife Julia Domna would have been descended from Drusilla, a sister of this "Jesus". I do agree about the significance of the Julian name, no doubt in my mind about that.
From Cleopatra to Christ
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Richard Stanley
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As you can see, Ellis had two possibilities (based upon the ambiguities in decoding the narratives) for the direct patrimony of 'Jesus', one descending from Cleo Selene, yet all tying back to Cleo VII.
On 274-275 of King Jesus, Ellis has Julia Domna as a descendant of one Claudia Piso who was married to Gaius Julius Sampsigeramus. He doesn't provide a patrimony of SS in the chart, so I'll have to look back in the text and elsewhere (below). There is also a subsequent Ellis book that might have more, but I don't have access to it, - but Jerry does.
Oops, looks like I conflated the ancestry of SS with another as he was born from an equestrian family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus
So, in any case, it was Julia Domna who had the 'blood'. It all gets pretty confusing.
On 274-275 of King Jesus, Ellis has Julia Domna as a descendant of one Claudia Piso who was married to Gaius Julius Sampsigeramus. He doesn't provide a patrimony of SS in the chart, so I'll have to look back in the text and elsewhere (below). There is also a subsequent Ellis book that might have more, but I don't have access to it, - but Jerry does.
Oops, looks like I conflated the ancestry of SS with another as he was born from an equestrian family. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus
So, in any case, it was Julia Domna who had the 'blood'. It all gets pretty confusing.
Yes, the Claudia Piso I have is supposed to be a daughter of Arrius Calpurnius Piso, so both wife and husband Severan dynasty founders would be descended from the Piso "Jesus/Josephus/St. Peter". If the Ralph Ellis version of "Jesus" as the son of Ptolemy of Mauretania is correct, than his male line pedigree can be traced all the way back to Founder King Masinissa of Numidia (c238-148 BC), who is supposed to have lived to be 90 and sired 44 sons. The DNA significance of this is that subclade PF2546 of North African Haplogroup "E" splits into many smaller subclades about this time, and it has been theorized, but certainly not proven yet, that this splitting could represent King Masinissa and all of his sons and descendants. One of these smaller subclades eventually made it to England during the time of the Roman invasion in 43 AD and after. This is a rare occurrence of this particular DNA in England, and descendants of this subclade are believed to have been at Deva Victrix at Chester with the Romans. How do I know all of this? Because last month a preliminary Y chromosome test that I took predicted that I belonged to this rare subclade in England, through my male line ancestors, and if my male line ancestor came to England in the first century, and Ralph Ellis is right about "Jesus" being in Chester, my English ancestors came from Derbyshire, to the east of Chester, and guess who my rare North African/English DNA could have come from, sometimes truth is stranger than fiction! My final Y chromosome DNA test is not completed yet, and so I may be proven wrong, but does this sound any more fantastic than what Ralph Ellis wrote? All of you at "Postflaviana", in your own way, may be boldly going "where no man has gone before", and if you may be wrong sometimes, at least you have the courage to try to be right, and I do respect that.
Richard Stanley
Well-Known Member
Very interesting.
The more I learn about my adoptive family the "stranger" it all gets. It gets literally 'strange', because the Strange family is a branch of the Stanleys, both part of the dramas with the Tudors, Richard III and his twin nephews. And Cheshire, Derbyshire, and Lancashire.
According to Ellis, Jesus was neutered and hobbled otherwise, but maybe this was just part of the cover-up that I suspect. For instance, as I stated prior I think that the Muslim legend may indeed be correct that someone else was substituted on the cross, for 'appearance' sake.
The more I learn about my adoptive family the "stranger" it all gets. It gets literally 'strange', because the Strange family is a branch of the Stanleys, both part of the dramas with the Tudors, Richard III and his twin nephews. And Cheshire, Derbyshire, and Lancashire.
According to Ellis, Jesus was neutered and hobbled otherwise, but maybe this was just part of the cover-up that I suspect. For instance, as I stated prior I think that the Muslim legend may indeed be correct that someone else was substituted on the cross, for 'appearance' sake.
I certainly agree with you. As I am sure that you know, even the DNA testing of King Richard III shows that he may not have been whom he thought he was, a Plantagenet. Yes, I seem to recall the neutering from the "King Jesus" preview that I read, but by that time he already had children, could not one or more sons have gone to England from France, or wherever, after the "real" passing of their father, to continue a branch of the dynasty there? There are the legends of Joseph of Arimathea and his mining ventures there, also having him founding a family, which indicate that a group of blood kin continued on in England. Interestingly enough, the hypothesis for my ancient English ancestors is that they eventually moved to Derbyshire and became involved in mining ventures there, throughout the Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Norman invasions, and were left alone because they became wealthy enough to buy off any intrusion into their business in the Derbyshire Peak District, after all, who wants to kill off a money making machine for them?
Richard Stanley
Well-Known Member
Well, apropos to your question about exiled or unknown surviving descendants, it also turns out that a member of the House of York survived the Tudors, and his descendant just died a few years ago in some desert town in Australia.
There also is the claims about the long-haired, red-headed Merovingian kings having been members of 'Jesus' line or immediately close to him. Usually these claims are summarily rejected, but no one has considered this approach before, I think.
There also is the claims about the long-haired, red-headed Merovingian kings having been members of 'Jesus' line or immediately close to him. Usually these claims are summarily rejected, but no one has considered this approach before, I think.
Yes, I do remember that descendant of the House of York, because the brother of Richard III, Edward IV, had disputed ancestry also, they were "royal" siblings showing us that things may not be what they seem, and are taken for granted by most of us. As far as the Merovingian descent goes, Pierre Plantard made a laughingstock of any claims of that sort, or was he meant to? As far as my own humble hypothesis is concerned, believe me, I never considered this approach before last month either, never in my wildest dreams!
It may be intriguing to note that a DNA researcher of a North African/English line, who has been into this for many years before I even heard of it, but who knows nothing of my "theory", told me that the following was his complete guess without evidence, but that he believed Emperor Septimius Severus gave the Lutudarum, the ancient mining settlement whose exact location in Derbyshire is disputed to this very day, as a "gift" to his family. No coaching from me, he was only guessing and came up with that!
Richard Stanley
Well-Known Member
Yes, and Ellis efforts have given us some insights in to the name 'Sion', as in the Priory of Sion, and its true relationship to Zion. And, yes, maybe the whole Plantard business was a distractionary ruse.
The first video below is Part 1 of an interview with Ellis about his third book of Jesus, Jesus King of Edessa:
Part 2 below:
Oddly, at ~30 minutes in Ellis is asked about Atwill's Caesar's Messiah, and unfortunately claims that CM does not claim that Josephus wrote the gospels, but rather that Atwill says that Vespasian did. He could only infer that from the title, because the whole book is about the intimate relationship of Josephus' corpus to the gospels.
More comments tomorrow.
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Charles Watkins
Active Member
First off, thanks to Jerry for the material on Huller's book. I'm seeing the Flavians allying with the Alexandrian Jews to promote Vespasian as Messiah. It may be that Marcus Agrippa figured into that as Huller describes. I wonder how the Philo/Alexander faction related to Helena/Izates and to Josephus. Or to Barbiero's descendants of Moses. I'm fishing for some wider conspiracy by foreign Jewish elites.
As to Ellis, I find the identification of Josephus and Paul to be very convincing. The biographical details seal it for me, unless Paul was a complete fabrication using details from Josephus' life. I pause at the proposition that he was really Piso, because I don't see Piso fitting into Josephus's role in the revolt or as a Herodian.
Carotta agrees with the Josephus/Paul connection in JESUS WAS CAESAR. He makes the observation that had Josephus been tasked to provide a Romanized view of Jewish history, he would also have compiled material demonstrating that Vespasian/Titus was the true Messiah. But this is missing, allowing for the possibility it was repurposed for Jesus.
As to Ellis, I find the identification of Josephus and Paul to be very convincing. The biographical details seal it for me, unless Paul was a complete fabrication using details from Josephus' life. I pause at the proposition that he was really Piso, because I don't see Piso fitting into Josephus's role in the revolt or as a Herodian.
Carotta agrees with the Josephus/Paul connection in JESUS WAS CAESAR. He makes the observation that had Josephus been tasked to provide a Romanized view of Jewish history, he would also have compiled material demonstrating that Vespasian/Titus was the true Messiah. But this is missing, allowing for the possibility it was repurposed for Jesus.
Tyrone McCloskey
Active Member
I was surprised to see that Geni.com matter of factly lists Thea Musa Ourania as daughter of Caesar and Cleopatra VII- https://www.geni.com/people/Thea-Musa-Ourania/6000000069853993861
May I ask what the insights of Ellis were into the name "Sion"? To give credit where credit is due, he does seem to connect "Jesus" to a person (or two, or three) who was actually named "Jesus", or a variant of it. Also, if Joseph of Arimathea was actually Josephus, and "Jesus" was King Arthur, as he claims, then both of these individuals are supposed to have left descendants in England. So we have Ellis claiming Jesus was King of Edessa, Atwill claiming that Emperor Titus eventually became the Roman personification of Jesus, and Roman Piso claiming that Arrius Calpurnius Piso was both "Jesus" and Josephus, two for one! Have you ever been on the "Domain of Man" site of Charles N. Pope? It's been awhile since I've looked at it, and I am quoting only from memory, but he also has multiple identities for "Jesus", in his Roman guise making him a member of the Torquatus family, and I believe a descendant of Augustus, with Vespasian as a brother (?) and being the father of Josephus! Now there's a man who knows how to tie loose ends up! There are also other identities of "Jesus" that I have found on the Internet, but will not add here, I think the point is made. When all is said and done however, I do think that Postflaviana is doing a superior job of synthesizing and separating the wheat from the chaff on this issue, and I enjoy reading this information, truly.
Richard Stanley
Well-Known Member
It's interesting that Marcus Agrippa II was married to Berenice, who became Titus' mistress, and appears to be Mary Magdalene. In Cleopatra to Christ (pg. 75) Ellis quotes Josephus (Antiquities 17:31) as saying that Agrippa II was a close friend of Judas of Gamala's grandson, Philip, and that the latter was in charge of a large army ranging from Bethanya to Ourania (Edessa). In King Jesus, Ellis mentions Agrippa II on over 30 pages, so it might be interesting to go back and review them closely for any more insights.
Yes, I think the Paul / Josephus equations is best, however, as has been stated before, how do we really know who Josephus was? Ellis mentions in his Part 2 interview on Jesus, King of Edessa that the Syriac historians claim that a Paul and Barnabas were agents of the Edessan court, whose king was Abgarus: https://biblehub.com/topical/a/abgarus.htm
The Piso's are very interesting in any case, given the marriage relationship to Julius Caesar, and their library at Herculaneum, which somebody knew to make a beeline to (18th century?) once the city was discovered from under all the ash of Vesuvius.
Can you provide the page(s)?
Yes, this appears to be the case.
In one of his books on David and Solomon, Ellis relates that the Biblical name of 'Zoan' seems to apply to the Nile delta city of Tanis, where the later pharaohs ruled from. So Zoan > Zion > Sion?
https://postflaviana.org/community/index.php?threads/from-cleopatra-to-christ.2515/post-12501
Making the Jesus connection to Edessa is really interesting given the relationship of Abaham to the same, adjacent to Harran (or as Ellis equates Harran to (H)Ourania. And, that the Crusaders made a detour to Edessa on the way to Jerusalem, in the decades after the Norman Conquest. The latter was precisely 1,000 years after the Jewish War, and was memorialized by the Domesday (Doomsday) Book.
Also, as Ellis relates that Ourania means 'heaven', the Sabians of Harran were famous as astronomers. And, saba means 'star' ... and 'shepherd' in Sumerian.
Charles Watkins
Active Member
Charles Watkins
Active Member
Carotta's comments regarding Paul and Josephus are on page 333 of JESUS WAS CAESAR (1999). He references Bruno Bauer, a 19th Century philosopher.
OK, I am thinking that maybe there is a way to conflate or synchronize the Ellis, Piso, and Pope versions of Jesus. Actually, Roman Piso has this Arrius Calpurnius Piso (whom I am not yet sure actually existed) and his family writing the New Testament, using his family as models for Biblical characters, and making a big Roman joke out of it, so perhaps Piso/Jesus/Josephus does not count as a historical Jesus, and we can eliminate him. That leaves the Ralph Ellis and Charles N. Pope versions of Jesus, and both authors give him multiple identities and a new life after "death" in a different land, so they do have that in common. However, although they both also seem to agree that Josephus was born in AD 37, as his actual history relates, Pope makes the father of Josephus as Jesus, could this correlate with the Jesus of Ellis having a son Josephenes, and would this make Josephenes (Josephus) the "prodigal son" of his father Jesus, who "rebelled" against Jesus in the Jewish War, went over to a foreign country (Rome), but later came back to his father Jesus as Joseph of Arimathea, and had him taken down from the cross (seeking forgiveness from his father)? Both Jesus (King Arthur) and Josephus/Josephenes (Joseph of Arimathea) were both supposed to have settled in England and had descendants there, intriguing, but possible?
Personally, I think that I am going to stick with the Ralph Ellis identification of "Jesus" for now. I was just rereading "Jesus Among the Julio-Claudians" by Charles N. Pope, and all of the alternate identities and locations made my head spin! Believe me, Ralph Ellis keeps it simple compared to him, so I did accomplish one thing today, for myself at least, the elimination of competing "Jesus" characters.
Richard Stanley
Well-Known Member
Thx, the pages before that are all interesting to consider as well.
Yes, these are interesting ideas.
As Ellis points out, many of the identities that Josephus seems to cloth the Biblical 'Jesus' with are identities that he has invented using various means, like nicknames, names that refer to particular physical or behavioral attributes, etc.. This is in contrast to 'external' real people like Apollonius of Tyana, who was contemporaneous and even had nexus to the imperial court, and seems to even been in Alexandria with Vespasian as well. People like this could have been the source of adding narrative flavor to the gospel Jesus. Another person that would do such, as Ellis relates, is Hero of Alexander, who made parlor trick vessels that could appear .... to turn water into wine.