Richard Stanley

Administrator
This is one reason I think we (I) need a table made to keep track of all these details, including all the names.

Ellis has identified that Helena was able to purchase the high priesthood for her son shortly before the war, but I can't recall his name off the top of my head. And draws strong political and geographical links to the Zealots and the Essenes. The latter who can be seen as Egypto-Jews (w/ Amarna ties) as well.

And sorry to say I've been distracted with other matters as well. And I'm yet only about half way through Jesus, King of Edessa. I'll try to review what Ellis has said before as I read further on.

In any case, as I've stated before, I think Ellis is correct that Josephus was both hiding this royal family and leaving distinct yet 'deniable' breadcrumbs leading towards them. For most of Western history this manner of recording what happened was secure via its encryption and the general illiteracy of society, taking a considerable effort to decode by any outsider.
 

Sgt Pepper

Active Member
How can we help with the table? I see there's built-in functionality for it on this forum:
testtesttesttest
testtesttesttest
 

Seeker

Active Member
Charles and Seeker, thanks for your participation. I apologize for my increasing absence from the Forum. I've been sucked into a litigation predicament.
No problem for me, it is a labor of love that I enjoy, and I wish you success in this New Year with your personal affairs.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
How can we help with the table? I see there's built-in functionality for it on this forum:
Yes, the forum software has this function, but it is rather primitive - considering the complexity of topic. I was considering the use of a spreadsheet comparison, but Jerry thinks it wont work (even after Jerry's once infamous 9/11 Pentagon eyewitness comparison). I would attempt it myself, but sitting still for too long at the computer is difficult these days.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Ellis has identified that Helena was able to purchase the high priesthood for her son shortly before the war, but I can't recall his name off the top of my head. And draws strong political and geographical links to the Zealots and the Essenes. The latter who can be seen as Egypto-Jews (w/ Amarna ties) as well.
From memory, was that son Jesus the son of Sapphias (Sapphire robes of Virgin Mary?), rebel leader of mariners and also Governor in Tiberias, High Priest, and a General appointed by Ananus?
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Still working on researching those answers. However:

This is an interesting discussion below. For one thing Price brings up an interesting way to look at Josephus's 'Crazy Jesus', Jesus ben Ananias. BTW, Ellis believes the name Ananias derives from the sacred city of On (Heliopolis) where On (aka An/Anu) was the featured god, hence yet another Egyptian linkage.

And as well, the typological links to Osiris et al. via Genesis Joseph is valuable, compatible with the long term historical coupling we claim.

 

Seeker

Active Member
This site sort of agrees with Ellis about all of these "Jesus" Characters in the accounts of Josephus (I think that they are a bit mixed up on the origins of Jesus ben Ananus, though):

Other Jesus characters bear a
resemblance to the Historical Jesus Christ. , they are cataloged below .
  1. The First is Jesus of Gamala a Wealthy Galilean / high Priest/ Rebel Leader in the vicinity of Tiberias. Was in a position to give orders to Tiberians although under whose authority is not mentioned, possibly as a regional Governor. In the civil war in Judaea. He had debated with the besieging Idumeans, led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’. It didn't do him any good. As per legend When the Idumeans breached the walls he was executed.
  2. The second is .Jesus of Shaphat {or Son of Shaphat / Ben Shaphat} also a Wealthy Galilean / high Priest?/ Rebel Leader in the vicinity of Tiberias. In the Jewish Revolt of 68AD this Jesus led rebel factions in Tiberias. Led a group that attacked Roman Commander Valerian and made off with his horses, he took refuge in Tiberias. When the city was about to fall he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.
  3. Third is Jesus ben Sapphias {or Son of Sapphias / Ben Sapphias } Referred to by Josephus as a rebel leader of a "seditious mob of Mariners" {mariners being equated to as fishermen} in the vicinity of Tiberias. At one point he was the Governor of Tiberias. Was also a High Priest and a General appointed by "Ananus ". In addition to the simile of names with Jesus of Shaphat, This Jesus's description and geography are very close to Jesus of Gamala and Jesus -Shaphat and Jesus ben Sapphias- they may all be the same person.
  4. and finally Josephus mentions Jesus ben Ananus {Son of "Ananus "} Josephus states that this Jesus was a High Priest, and a rebel leader in the Galilee/ Tiberias area. Arrested and flogged by the Romans. Josephus gives a narrative reminiscent of the passion of Jesus, in which the bones of this Jesus were "laid bare" .
"...most eminent of the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his and took up the man Jesus and gave him a great number of severe stripes. Yet he did not say anything for himself, or anything peculiar to those that chastised him,... he went on with the same words...as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man... he was whipped till his bones were laid bare, yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears." -Josephus The Jewish War
All the above Jesus' are Wealthy Galileans with connections or relations to the High priesthood as well as political ties in Galilee, it is Highly unlikely that there were four Jesus' running around Palestine at the same time, all leading guerilla bands opposed to Rome and all hailing from Galilee. They are certainly second hand references , drawing from various resources with varying accreditations of the same Jesus- Jesus of Galilee, the actual Historical Jesus Christ.

vhttp://www.geocities.ws/nephilimnot/jesus_proof.html
 
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Other Jesus characters bear a resemblance to the Historical Jesus Christ. , they are cataloged below .
So did any of these Jesus figures participate in the fall of Jerusalem? After Titus mopped up Galilee, the remaining Zealot rebels supposedly retreated to Jerusalem. There followed some brutal infighting. Where was Jesus in all this? Was he already captured?
 

Seeker

Active Member
If I am following Richard and Ralph Ellis correctly (and, hopefully, if I am not, Richard will correct me), apparently all of the above Jesus figures were "merged" into Jerusalem with the Izates/Monobazus figure by the wily Josephus (and/or Ellis).
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
I think that's generally correct. Multiple Identity Disorder. But, Ellis has made revisions as he's gone along, so he may yet have a surprise or two up his sleeve. My reading is accelerating in the negative direction.
 
Ellis is pretty clear about identifying Izates with Jesus of Gamala. However, though there is plenty written on Judas of Gamala, I can't find much on his sons. Josephus mentions Jesus of Gamala as a high priest who opposed the zealots during the siege. Other than that, I find no records of a Jesus or a Gamala playing any part in the military actions in Jerusalem.

So the story we have is that Izates as Jesus of Gamala was a top zealot leader, responsible for launching the Jewish War, who was made a high priest in Jerusalem, but apparently played no role in the fighting.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
There are many interpretations of the kaleidoscopic gospel Jesus. He is a peaceful lamb, a fierce warrior coming to destroy 'nuclear' families (but not Rome), a Communist, a Capitalist, a magician, a healer, a .... nother man like Paul who is all things to whomever.

What is to prevent Josephus from depicting one real man as several (ambiguation), each with different attributes? Imagine what would have happened if Josephus had depicted one man as Ellis has been disambiguating? And the competing works of Justus of Tiberius are no longer extant, for a long time, to possibly contradict.

And, imagine all the warmongering presidents we've had with no military experience.
 
Unfortunately, our main source on the first Jewish War was Josephus. If he wanted to backdate the Jesus saga, he can't have him in Jerusalem at the end. So he would either edit out any part played by Jesus of Gamala or disguise him as someone else. If he was really of the stature Ellis suggests, this could be the Zealot leader Eleazar bin Simon. There's not much on his background.
 

Seeker

Active Member
We might also ponder a possible elite branch relationship between these powerful queens and the famous Amazon queens of Scythia (now historical and not legendary), using the premise that such as Hyksos 'Arya' (with their horses and chariots and such) took over Egypt.
Tomb With Three Generations of ‘Amazon’ Warrior Women Found in Russia
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-amazon-warrior-women-russia-archaeology-scythian-greece-1.8327358
 

Seeker

Active Member
History is written by the winners, in this case by Rome (through Josephus) about the loser, Jesus. Therefore, if I understand Ellis correctly (and I admit that I have not read all of his books), the status of Jesus/Izates etc. was diminished, disguised, and assimilated from true Eastern royalty into a confusing plethora of Jewish rabble-rousers, whose endings were as obscure and degraded as their beginnings, except as the basis for a "resurrected" Roman religion. Rome believed in divide and conquer, and they could do that with personalities that opposed them, as well as countries. Look at all of the divided Jewish factions in Jerusalem, for example, who were fighting amongst themselves, instead of fighting their supposed common enemy Rome, could there not have been more than one "Jesus" in each of them, working for different ends, under different names, some for Rome, and some against, with some or all of them planted by Rome? How many turncoats could there have been during the Jewish War besides Josephus, is it very likely that he was the only one, or only the most famous because he wrote about himself? Or, could "Jesus" also have been one man split into several differing attributes, as Richard suggests, sort of a "Three Faces of Jesus" or a "Sibyl"(how appropriately Roman!). There is no black or white here, but an intentional grey area "spin" with this "history" of Josephus, who wasn't exactly a straight arrow to begin with, or only one "person" himself, if Ellis is correct.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
I swear that I posted several years ago about the following docu, or something very similar, somewhere on this site, but I haven't found it. It discusses that the main view of the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Angleland (England) is wrong (hence the claimed war with Arthur). That this narrative was created by the Roman Church when it arrived much later. And ... when it did arrive it found a church that was far more advanced than the Roman Church.

Part 1:
The channel posting this appears to be a monarchist site, so caveat emptor, as always.
 
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Seeker

Active Member
If am understanding that video correctly, the native Celts apparently "allowed" the Romans and Anglo-Saxons to settle in England, not "invade", and there was no Arthur in the 5th century, which in a way would confirm the Ellis contention that Jesus/Arthur lived in the first century and did not fight Anglo-Saxons. Could the conquests of "Arthur" then have been religious in England, and not territorial? The story goes that the first Celtic King of Britain was Samothes, the son of Japheth, the son of Noah, about 4000 years ago, the beginning time frame of Celtic England alluded to in this presentation. Was someone of the Uber-Elite family really dividing the world up among his sons and grandsons at that time?
 
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