Seeker

Active Member
Also, you have a terrorist group (Zealots) called the "Apostles", and the "Apostles" Judas called Iscariot and Simon called Zelotes were supposed to be members of the Zealots. Ethan Hunt (Jesus son of Gamala), who works for the IMF (the Roman "speculatores") assumes the role of John Lark (Jesus son of Sapphias, an "extremist" like John Lark who may have been presumed to have been killed before this in Galilee by a Roman operative, Ilsa Faust, and the original "Faust" (gender change) sold his soul to the "Devil" in order to rule the world, an inversion of the"Jesus"story ), but is "shadowed" by Special Activities Division operative August (code for the first Roman Emperor Augustus, whom Titus now represents at the siege of Jerusalem as the son and representative of a successive Roman Emperor Vespasian). Ethan Hunt escapes the hitmen sent to kill Jesus of Gamala (his former identity, but of course he now is "John Lark"(Jesus son of Sapphias) and Alanna (Ananus the high priest, another gender change here) Mitsopolis the "White Widow" (Freemasons are "Sons of the Widow", a "Jewish" creation). Am I making this complicated enough?
 

Seeker

Active Member
As you and Jerry are my "Twin" Caesars here (I am obviously aspiring to the role of "Josephus"), please feel free to delete whatever you find incriminating to Postflaviana.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Not sure about the timing of this, it could be wrong, but suppose "Basilides" was "Jesus son of Gamala", escaped from Jerusalem (he was not buried but thrown outside) after his near "death" but wounded, and also one of the two disabled men who meet with Vespasian in Alexandria, the other being Ananus? Jesus is sent back to the city as a Roman operative, Jesus son of Sapphias, and as Jesus son of Thebuthus later hands to Titus the Temple veils and other items, plus has a substitute, Simon of Cyrene, crucified in his place, whom Josephus will later have taken down from the cross. This North African Simon may have been a loyal retainer of Jesus/Izas, whose real father may have been "Pantera" (Ptolemy of Mauretania), as the Talmud asserted.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Seems like a possibility worth considering. 'Thebuthus' has a rather Egyptian ring to it, IMHO. Cyrene seems a good deniable pointer to the line of Cleo Selene. It's interesting how so many 'outsiders' (from Palestine) play so many roles in all of this.

Our recent fun conjecturing on impossible missions has boosted my confidence that this is the correct analytical track.

That said, with various distractions I'm getting bogged down in my further reading of Jesus, King of Edessa. Ellis is still mucking around with complaining about various accounts of martial events that can't jib with the claimed geography. Reminds me of my thread on when Mecca was Becca (Petra). And someone(s) took an eraser to the early Qurans and changed the Arabic 'b' into an 'm'. Deja vu all over again. More Idumaeans and Nabataeans.
 
Last edited:

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Laggging far behind as usual, I've just recently finished re-reading Carotta's last chapter of Jesus was Caesar. I've also been referring to this paper at Carotta's website:

https://carotta.de/subseite/texte/articula/Escorial_en.pdf

The Gospels as diegetic Transposition:
A possible Solution to the Aporia “Did Jesus exist?”
We want to quickly verify the hypothesis of a diegetic transposition using the terminology introduced by Gérard Genette in “Palimpsestes. La littérature au second degré”.1 The fundamental law of the diegetic transposition is the proximization principle, that is to say, the story which is retold moves closer to the new public, to its audience. This principle has three aspects:
Geographical, chronological and social approximation.
• The geographical approximation implies that an event which originally developed in another place, in another geography, is being relocalized to the place where it is rewritten. The consequence is often a change of language, a change of nationality of the characters, and a change of location. For example, when Bulgakov in The Master and Margarita rewrites the German Faust, the action develops in Russia and the story is written in Russian. When James Joyce rewrites the Odyssey,the action is transferred to Ireland and the Greek Ulysses ends up being a Hebrew in Dublin. In the American remake of the well-known film by Akira Kurosawa, The Seven Samurai end up being cowboys.
• The chronological approximation is necessary in order that the his- torical event, which occurred long ago, may seem to have happened at an almost present time. For example, the saga of the real Johann Faust, who presumably lived between 1466 and 1538, was published by Jo- hann Spies in 1587—that is more than a century after his birth—and updated at different times, by Goethe in 1808 and 1832, by Thomas Mann in 1947 and Bulgakov’s version was published in 1967.
• The social approximation often resets stories starring kings and emperors into popular ambits. The princess becomes Cinderella. The aim of this social resetting is to turn the historical figure into “one of ours” and therefore to appropriate the story and revive it. In this case Ulysses who was king of Ithaca arrives as an Irish medic. Etc.
In the rest of the article, Carotta compares the place names and other aspects of the Gospels vs. tales of Julius Caesar. He often mentions copying errors, mispronunciations or mis-translations as possible sources of the transposition.

With all of the discussion of 'comedy of errors', I missed that Carotta's examples of 'diegetic transformations' are all highly deliberate literary inventions. Carotta's real argument is that the authors of the NT deliberately exploited the pre-existing confusion, in the process of inventing their syncretized Jesus.

I'm mentioning this here, in hopes that perhaps it will be relevant to the discussion of Adiabene->Edessa, or Becca->Mecca.
 

Seeker

Active Member
What is really hard on me is that is that I am so used to using "dates" in my research, and Josephus leaves me with practically nothing to go by, perhaps intentionally. Personally, I do see Jerry's point about not building castles in the air, and I do try to indicate when I am speculating, having fun (IMF movie spinoff), or may be just plain wrong. as with my previous scenario. I leave it up to Postflaviana members to debate the pros and cons of what I may come up with, and accept their constructive criticism. I must confess, though, that since joining this group, I have gradually expanded my thought processes from just taking Josephus "literally", to thinking outside of the "box".
The feeling is mutual, composing that IMF movie scenario, using parallel characters from Josephus, made me rethink that whole analysis in a way that was fun. I must confess though, that when you first proposed this to me, I tried to sidestep it as irrelevant nonsense, it took awhile for me to get into it and want to do something with it, as you probably noticed! Also, I was literally stuck with the violent death of Jesus son of Gamala, thinking that he could not be "Jesus", but then going back and realizing that he was "killed" by the Idumeans. whom Jesus son of Sapphias was supposed to have been a General over, plus your pointing out to me that James and John were Idumean leaders also, made me rethink this.
Just found this below, a timeline of the factional fighting in Jerusalem. If this is correct, than Ananus and Jesus were "killed" about Feb. 68 AD, the year before Basilides and the two disabled men appear to Vespasian in Alexandria.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
With all of the discussion of 'comedy of errors', I missed that Carotta's examples of 'diegetic transformations' are all highly deliberate literary inventions. Carotta's real argument is that the authors of the NT deliberately exploited the pre-existing confusion, in the process of inventing their syncretized Jesus.
Yes, and thus we can see that this "pre-existing confusion", caused by the spontaneous (or encouraged?) regional retelling by recontextualizing away from the original gives us the various respective cultural focuses attributed to the four different gospels. The final literary redaction project becomes much easier to achieve. And, because the source of the original strata was such as the garrisons, the process of swapping out texts becomes much easier to achieve.
What is really hard on me is that is that I am so used to using "dates" in my research, and Josephus leaves me with practically nothing to go by, perhaps intentionally. Personally, I do see Jerry's point about not building castles in the air, and I do try to indicate when I am speculating, having fun (IMF movie spinoff), or may be just plain wrong. as with my previous scenario. I leave it up to Postflaviana members to debate the pros and cons of what I may come up with, and accept their constructive criticism. I must confess, though, that since joining this group, I have gradually expanded my thought processes from just taking Josephus "literally", to thinking outside of the "box".
The feeling is mutual, composing that IMF movie scenario, using parallel characters from Josephus, made me rethink that whole analysis in a way that was fun. I must confess though, that when you first proposed this to me, I tried to sidestep it as irrelevant nonsense, it took awhile for me to get into it and want to do something with it, as you probably noticed!
We are dealing with sneaky, Machiavellian people, so we have to think like sneaky, Machiavellian people. That means we have to constantly read between the lines and suspect their surface narratives.

Once upon a time, before all my prior adult world was globalized to China and such, I worked as an engineer in several small high tech companies that made customized manufacturing equipment for other high-tech companies. Most of our projects made re-use of 85 to 90% of the developments from prior projects, leaving the balance to be developed new. Most of the new development was straightforward, but because of time constraints, we occasionally bid projects where we had no clear idea of how we would accomplish certain specific tasks, just having an educated guess that we could do it. We just put a big, padded number into the contract bid for that item and figured if we didn't get the job, that's OK, we always had other projects going. So, when we (always) got those contracts, we'd have to have a meeting to discuss how the hell we were really going to go about delivering the goods.

As such, I found the best approach was to start with a "let's throw some shit at the wall" session. Out of the frequently insane and hilarious early notions proposed would frequently lead to the real path that worked.

Check out the long video I just posted on The War on Sensemaking, where it is discussed just how complicated the world is in our abilities to make sense of reality, even for the best thinkers and scientists. We all have to depend on proxy framers of our worldviews. So, we must be willing to question everything and everyone, ... excepting me of course. o_O
 

Seeker

Active Member
I know one thing, maybe it's because I'm getting old, but lately I just want to turn the news off a couple of minutes after I turn it on, it just seems to want to make me either depressed or scared.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
This means it is Omega and Alpha time ... once again. Have you read my blog article: Apocalypse How, Part 1?

I'm not sure I can survive long enough to finish the series, but I am especially proud of my recent proof that Castor and Pollux were symbolically represented on the crosses with Jesus. That is part of what should appear in Part 3, but I haven't even gotten back to part 2, such as to discuss the simultaneous [sic] development, by the earliest Jesuits, and Church endorsement of the Preterist and Futurist Schools of the End Times. The latter promoted by 'Protestant' fundamentalist zealots today.

As such, is scripture functioning as 'script' - to be followed in the future?

How does one explain MacDonald's dense Homeric typology showing up in the gospels, and Pollio's history of Christ Julius ending up in the same gospels?

We can be fairly certain that the Trojan War was highly embellished, and while we don't have any extant copy of Pollio's history, we known that Julius Caesar's own account of the Conquest of Gaul have some rather fantastical military feats. But, we can be pretty certain that this JC existed, via hard evidences.

Others, including Ellis, have found other Trojan Wars, from Egypt, to Scandinavia, to France. Human mass psychology is controlled by Culture, and thus the importance of its scripts .. scripture. Hence the practice of imitatio or memesis in its resuse of older materials.

And then to recently realize that Virgil, in the famous 4th Eclogue, states that a second Trojan War is coming? Remember the infamous PNAC document alluding to a new Pearl Harbor?
 
Last edited:

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Article about Basilides and the substitution of Simon of Cyrene at the crucifixion. The author endorses Atwill's "Caesar's Messiah". Also, Greek- Basilides= "King's son".
It is sadly funny that the author thinks that Simon of Cyrene was a black man, because Cyrene is on the African continent. For the life of me, I can't figure out why blacks are so willing to identify themselves with such characters and a book that was used to enslave them. Hmmm, I guess for the same reason that whites do.

I did see that Suetonius said that the king of Parthia, Vologaesus, offered Vespasian the use of 40,000 Parthian archers to help beat Vittelius. I'm guessing they weren't needed, and Vologaesus understood that, if it's true.


After this speech from Mucianus, the other officers crowded round Vespasian with fresh confidence, encouraging him, and reminding him of the responses of prophets and the movements of the heavenly bodies. Nor was Vespasian proof against this superstition, for afterwards, when master of the world, he openly retained one Seleucus, an astrologer, to direct his counsels, and to foretell the future. Old omens now recurred to his thoughts. A cypress-tree of remarkable height on his estate had suddenly fallen, and rising again the following day on the very same spot, had flourished with majestic beauty and even broader shade. This, as the Haruspices agreed, was an omen of brilliant success, and the highest distinction seemed prophesied to Vespasian in early youth. At first, however, the honours of a triumph, his consulate, and the glory of his victories in Judæa, appeared to have justified the truth of the omen. When he had won these distinctions, he began to believe that it portended the Imperial power. Between Judæa and Syria is Mount Carmel; this is the name both of the mountain and the Deity. They have no image of the god nor any temple; the tradition of antiquity recognises only an altar and its sacred association. While Vespasian was there offering sacrifice and pondering his secret hopes, Basilides the priest, after repeated inspections of the entrails, said to him, "Whatever be your purposes, Vespasian, whether you think of building a house, of enlarging your estate, or augmenting the number of your slaves, there is given you a vast habitation, boundless territory, a multitude of men." These obscure intimations popular rumour had at once caught up, and now began to interpret. Nothing was more talked about by the common people. In Vespasian's presence the topic was more frequently discussed, because to the aspirant himself men have more to say.

Curious that we have Vespasian interested in astrology, and this is also the focus of what Saul is supposed to be suppressing in Galilee. Mt. Carmel is "between Judea and Syria".

Basilides is likely a priest of a gnostic sect similar as with the Nazarene gnostic sect. It is a gnostic Basilides and Valentinus that petition the early Roman Church for ecclesiastical offices, because these sects predated normative Christianity. These gnostic individuals were in line with the Hellenistic religious and scientific thinking of the day. And besides, there is the claim by Suetonius that this same Basilides was a freedman of Vespasian himself.

We are basically talking about a Pythagorean/Platonic/astrological/gnosticism that would seem plausible for 'Chrestianity' (and Mithraism), before it becomes trimmed down to normative Christianity.

With purposes no longer doubtful they parted, Mucianus for Antioch, Vespasian for Cæsarea. These cities are the capitals of Syria and Judæa respectively. The initiative in transferring the Empire to Vespasian was taken at Alexandria under the prompt direction of Tiberius Alexander, who on the 1st of July made the legions swear allegiance to him. That day was ever after celebrated as the first of his reign, though the army of Judæa on July 3rd took the oath to Vespasian in person with such eager alacrity that they would not wait for the return of his son Titus, who was then on his way back from Syria, acting as the medium between Mucianus and his father for the communication of their plans. All this was done by the impulsive action of the soldiers without the preliminary of a formal harangue or any concentration of the legions.

Tiberius Alexander is Philo's nephew, a Jew.

And, more importantly, such as Vespasian and his descendants are indeed aligned, theologically at least, with these esoteric 'Galilean' sect Egypto-Jews, as Ellis has them. And this fits with them being parlayed as a controlled opposition to provoke the normative nationalist Jews into rebellion, so that they cane be eliminated from the landscape.

About 1,000 years before (a millennium) the normative Canaanites (their city cultures destroyed with the collapse of the Late Bronze Age) are replaced with others and/or have their 'pagan' beliefs replaced (by an imposed Egyptian priesthood, the Yehud - renamed to Levites). If not amenible, they are either killed or packed off to Siberia, so to speak.
 
Last edited:

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Et in Arcadia ego?

It has long been pondered what the meaning of this phrase is. Suetonius recounts the story about an effigy being dug up in Tegea that resembled Vespasian, thus one of the indicators that Vespasian would accede to the imperial throne.

What of this Tegea, the highest city of Arcadia?

Tegea is mentioned by Homer in the Catalogue of Ships in the Iliad,[9] and was probably the most celebrated of all the Arcadian towns in the earliest times. This appears from its heroic renown, since its king Echemus is said to have slain Hyllus, the son of Heracles, in single combat.[10][11]

It's king killed the son of Hercules? The son of a god? And now Vespasian is being pointed to from Tegea in Arcadia? Arcadia, an idyllic land of pastoral shepherds, .... except when at war with or against the neighboring Spartans. (As I have discussed before, the late Professor Moses Hadas, of Columbia University, explained (in Hellenistic Culture) why the Spartans likely were related to the 'Jews' (the Maccabeans at least) as related in the famous letter in the Book of Maccabees.

Suetonius:

Having, therefore, entered on a civil war, and sent forward his generals and forces into Italy, he himself, in the meantime, passed over to Alexandria, to obtain possession of the key of Egypt.1 Here having entered alone, without attendants, the temple of Serapis, to take the auspices respecting the establishment of his power, and having done his utmost to propitiate the deity, upon turning round, [his freedman] Basilides2 appeared before him, and seemed to offer him the sacred leaves, chaplets, and cakes, according to the usage of the place, although no one had admitted him, and he had long laboured under a muscular debility, which would hardly have allowed him to walk into the temple; besides which, it was certain that at the very time he was far away. Immediately after this, arrived letters with intelligence that Vitellius's troops had been defeated at Cremona, and he himself slain at Rome. Vespasian, the new emperor, having been raised unexpectedly from a low estate, wanted something which might clothe him with divine majesty and authority. This, likewise, was now added. A poor man who was blind, and another who was lame, came both together before him, when he was seated on the tribunal, imploring him to heal them,3 and saying that they were admonished in a dream by the god Serapis to seek his aid, who assured them that he would restore sight to the one by anointing his eyes with his spittle, and give strength to the leg of the other, if he vouchsafed but to touch it with his heel. At first he could scarcely believe that the thing would any how succeed, and therefore hesitated to venture on making the experiment. At length, however, by the advice of his friends, he made the attempt publicly, in the presence of the assembled multitudes, and it was crowned with success in both cases.4 About the same time, at Tegea in Arcadia, by the direction of some soothsayers, several vessels of ancient workmanship were dug out of a consecrated place, on which there was an effigy resembling Vespasian.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Basilides was a priest, just as Jesus son of Gamala and Jesus son of Sapphias were, and Vespasian "freed" him, while Jesus/Izates may have married the sister of Tiberius Alexander. The Spartan rulers would seem to be the descendants of Dan and the Maccabeans the descendants of his brother Levi, sons of Jacob/Israel.
 

Seeker

Active Member
I am thinking of Castor representing Gestas, the bad thief who "died" on the cross, and Pollux representing "Dismas", the good thief who became "immortal". Also, to make this even more interesting, the apocryphal Syriac Infancy Gospel gives Dismas the name of, Titus...
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Speaking of Hercules (and Castor and Pollux):

In Christian circles a Euhemerist reading of the widespread Heracles cult was attributed to a historical figure who had been offered cult status after his death. Thus Eusebius, Preparation of the Gospel (10.12), reported that Clement could offer historical dates for Hercules as a king in Argos: "from the reign of Hercules in Argos to the deification of Hercules himself and of Asclepius there are comprised thirty-eight years, according to Apollodorus the chronicler: and from that point to the deification of Castor and Pollux fifty-three years: and somewhere about this time was the capture of Troy."
Readers with a literalist bent, following Clement's reasoning, have asserted from this remark that, since Heracles ruled over Tiryns in Argos at the same time that Eurystheus ruled over Mycenae, and since at about this time Linus was Heracles' teacher, one can conclude, based on Jerome's date—in his universal history, his Chronicon—given to Linus' notoriety in teaching Heracles in 1264 BCE, that Heracles' death and deification occurred 38 years later, in approximately 1226 BCE.

Of course, many see in the Labors of Hercules and the Odyssey tales that are based upon the precession of equinoxes, just as the Book of Revelation has 24 elders (millenniums) seated around God, the Sun (aka the Aten, Helios, Apollo, etc..).

I am thinking of Castor representing Gestas, the bad thief who "died" on the cross, and Pollux representing "Dismas", the good thief who became "immortal". Also, to make this even more interesting, the apocryphal Syriac Infancy Gospel gives Dismas the name of, Titus...
Yes, this was covered by J Rendell Harris in his works on the Dioscuri Twins, and I talked about on the Chrest to Christ thread.
 

Seeker

Active Member
That dating is remarkable, for if Hercules was actually deified in about 1226 BCE, and Castor and Pollux deified 53 years later in 1173 BCE, then somewhere around this time would be the traditional capture of Troy in 1184 BCE, as was stated, though I believe that the "Twins" would have been deified just after their sister Helen was kidnapped by Paris, making the capture of Troy about 1163 BCE using this computation.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
The Excavating the Empty Tomb series has been very useful, and in the following episode he discusses the apocryphal First Clement, attributed to Clement, the supposed (Flavian) first pope. What is very germane to this thread is its emphasis on the relationship of the Phoenix bird to the concept of resurrection. This is yet another linkage to Heliopolis and the BenBen and possibly to such as Elagabalus and his stone.

The cyclical period of 500 years is mentioned, which is also interesting in light of my theory of 500 year sub-millennial cycles within the larger zodiacal age construct.

 
Since this topic is still running, I thought I might come back with a review of the Nazarene Way material at http://www.thenazareneway.com/

Most of this material is about doctrine of the Nazarene faith, which they say is the original teaching of Jesus carried on by the Essenes. But there are also a good many historical essays, including some about Philo of Alexandria which was what brought me there. I found the main force behind the site to be PJ Gott, who advanced some intriguing ideas that led me to order two of her books. These are generally well written and referenced with convenient chapter summaries.

JOSEPHUS' JESUS says that Plutarch was the author of Luke and Acts. She believes that Mark was originally a Nazarene gospel, rewritten by Josephus as Matthew and later heavily edited into the Mark we know today. Luke and Acts were Plutarch's way of exposing the plot, done subtly using the methods of Philo. In this system, 'enigmas' are recognized by textual clues such a doubling of expressions or references to supernatural entities such as angels. These are to tell those whose eyes are open to look for correspondences in Josephus regarding the same matters. Luke/Plutarch is exposing Paul to be the treacherous Saul. (This is stated only in Luke, never in the Letters.)

FOLLOWING PHILO was a kick in the teeth. We get more on Philo and the various players in Alexandria and she offers a convincing argument that the Crucification took place in March AD37 at about the same time as the death of Tiberius. But then she spins out of control and begins to wildly equate royal personages -- e.g. Paul was also Caligula, Alexander Alabarch was Jesus, Antony and Cleopatra were Herod and Mirriamme. Now I have to question some of the ideas I thought were credible.
 
Top