Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
OK, I will have to make Stellarium charts for those years. I don't remember if I looked around the years prior to 70 CE, but I'll do that as well. Thank Dogod that I only need to keep on the equinox date on September 23 to find candidate years.

Allowing for variant planet counts would add more incidents, some of which might meet the "malingering Jupiter" parameter.
I'm not sure what other planet besides Jupiter would make a good candidate for a new savior, within the 'pagan' mythos of such as Castor and Pollux being the prior (to Jesus) savior sons of Zeus- Jupiter, in any case.

But on the other hand, the sun is at Virgo's shoulder, not necessarily appearing as 'clothing'.
Isn't the top of most 'decent' people's clothing starting at their shoulders, that is, if they are wearing a hood?
And furthermore, as Sarfati complains, it's an arbitrary convention that Leo contains 9 stars.
Arbitrary or not, that's what it is. Maybe some ultra-conspiratorial team of constellation determinators specifically set the number to nine, knowing what the planetary conditions would be on September 23, 2017, and therefore ..... the number is not .... 'arbitrary'
Revelations 12:3 continues: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. In 2017, where is this red dragon in the heavens? If the 2017 event is supposed to fit Revelation 12 like a key fits a lock, wouldn't we expect some reasonably transparent manifestation of this prophecy as well?
There's always a dragon (snake) or two in the heavens Jerry. The 'heads', 'horns', and 'crowns' are symbolic imagery borrowed from Daniel where it is explicit that these refer to kingdoms and empires. Possibly we are supposed to apply the precept of 'as below, so above' to the interpretation here.

Jerry Russell

Staff member
I'm not sure what other planet besides Jupiter would make a good candidate for a new savior,
Agreed, although it's worth noting that this is not explicitly specified by Rev. 12.

Isn't the top of most 'decent' people's clothing starting at their shoulders, that is, if they are wearing a hood?
Sounds like special pleading to me. Surely the virgin would demand clothing to modestly cover her torso, and not just an anchor for her hoodie.

Arbitrary or not, that's what it is.
If indeed there is some ancient standard understanding that Leo contains exactly nine stars, then I would agree. But, are the ancient sources consistent? I don't know. The Wikipedia article describes and depicts the 9-star version; but it also shows an image from ca. 1000 AD with 12 stars, and a modern interpretation involving 15 stars.

There's always a dragon (snake) or two in the heavens Jerry. The 'heads', 'horns', and 'crowns' are symbolic imagery borrowed from Daniel where it is explicit that these refer to kingdoms and empires. Possibly we are supposed to apply the precept of 'as below, so above' to the interpretation here.
Yes, we presumably should be applying the precept 'as above, so below'. If so, then: for a suitable prophetic match, we should be able to identify the seven crowned heads and ten horns above in the stars, as well as below on the earth. No excuses!! Some generally snake-shaped thing that's always in the sky is not going to cut it.

Jerry Russell

Staff member
for a suitable prophetic match
I should have added that in the original context (ca. 70-100 AD) it seems reasonable to demand a complete match between the historical circumstances, the astronomical situation, and the text. As long as there are unsolved pieces of the puzzle, there's room for doubt that we have fully or correctly understood the intent of the original author.

When the same text is re-used for other purposes, hundreds or thousands of years later, it's much more difficult for an entire scenario to find a complete match. A human endeavor might settle for a partial match, or ironically create circumstances which fulfill at least the earthly aspect of the recycled prophetic text.

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Of course, we have already had a commentator on the forum explain the red dragon in cosmological terms. I need to review what he has said, and when we can expect its (a specific solar agitation of Venus) return.

In any case, I will construct a comparison table of the five different alignments and any more if I can find them.

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
After a long afternoon at the Stellarium, I can provide my definitive preliminary report. Out of the four second millennium candidate years (1056, 1293, 1483, 1827) and 2017, the latter was the clear winner in being the most precise, and only dense match for verses 1 and 2 of Revelation 12. The next verses of Rev 12 are clear that the red dragon is a separate event, but does not even allude to how much time will pass in-between. In the next verses after the red dragon it states that 3.5 years will pass before a cosmic war occurs. Thank Trump we'll have a Space Force.

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there
a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev 12 KJV)

By definition, the Sun must always 'clothe' the woman, as this is the place of the autumn equinox after all. The autumn equinox 'Silver Gate' does move slightly between the years (due to precession of the equinoxes), but always stays within the clothing area.

2017 was the only year with 3 planets (Mercury, Venus, and Mars) in Leo.

(Baby) Jupiter always moves inside the woman at this time as must be expected that retrograde motion will appear at this general spot from the perspective of the Earth. However, it is only in 2017 that baby Jupiter stays below the diaphram, as in the other years Jupiter moves 'backwards' up variously towards the breast to shoulder height of the woman.

As I have noted with 9/11/2001, the Moon is the fastest moving object and hence the most sensitive to precise timing and the observer's longitudinal position. And so, questions could arise as to does one go here by the precise equinoctial position of the Sun, or allow for inevitable shift within a particular calendar system. In any case, there was only one of the second millennium years (1483) when the Moon was close enough to sweep into the position being at the feet of the woman during the equinox.

According to researcher and author Keith Hunter, the red dragon is represented by Venus, when the Sun and the Moon (and Jupiter?) are also in the proper positions. I need to check this out further, but the spring equinox of 2021 may indeed qualify as this alignment, 3.5 years later, just as Revelation 12 demands. It appears that both Venus and Mercury are in line between the Earth and the Sun, which according to Hunter will blast Venus with a plasma plume, the dragon's tail.
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
By definition, the Sun must always 'clothe' the woman, as this is the place of the autumn equinox after all. The autumn equinox 'Silver Gate' does move slightly between the years (due to precession of the equinoxes), but always stays within the clothing area.
In fact, as the spring equinox's Golden Gate is moving ever towards Aquarius, the autumn Silver Gate's Sun will move above Virgo's shoulder towards Leo, and there will not appear to be anymore chances to achieve this first prerequisite alignment, of the equinoctial Sun clothing the woman. And therefore, the verse is talking about an event that could only occur in the Age of Pisces, the one that is currently ending, however ambiguous and/or various it's defined.

Since there were 4 candidate alignments in the second millennium, we can presume there were a few more similar ones in the first millennium. Unfortunately Sarfati only mentioned the 4 in the second millennium, and so for the time being it will have to wait to research for those. Thankfully Jupiter is only in the region of Virgo every 11 to 12 years on the autumn equinox, but still this will take some time, unless I can find a table of such possible alignments. For now, my guess is that there will indeed be no such precise alignment as 9/23/2017.

However, I did look at possible alignments around 70 CE and before. There is a candidate alignment at 71 CE and 83 CE, within the Flavian dynastic period. But these do not qualify precisely. Nor do the prior ones moving back in time from there.

Here is the view of 9/23/2017:


Here is 9/23/1827 (the Moon can sweep through the region of the feet, but there is only Mars in Leo):

Here is 9/15/1293 (Leo is empty ignoring Uranus, and the Moon is distant):

Here is 9/16/1056 (Venus is in Leo and the Moon is too far away):

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
In Chapter 19 of J. Rendel Harris's The Cult of the Heavenly Twins, he focuses on that the Milanese saints, Protase and Gervase are found on a mosaic with symbols on their clothing that seem plausible to be artistic renderings of the dokana of the Dioscuri twins, Castor and Pollux. And that this very same symbol is also found with a second set of Milanese saints, Nabor and Felix. Harris has gone to earlier lengths to identify Protase and Gervase as being Christian replacements for the prior local cult of the Dioscuri twins, but then asks who these second pairing is?

He traces the name Nabor to Persia and the cult of Mithra, and ... an association with the military, the latter the main demographic of the Romanized cult. As such I have copied chapter 19 in full:


So with Nabor and Felix we can see the exact same process of Christian transformation of the Mithraic twins to saints as with the Greek twins, who we've already identified as being the same entities in any case. With Mithraism, we also see that the numerous meeting places, many directly underneath Christian churches, were left intact, with all their iconography as well.


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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
The conclusion to Harris's The Cult of the Heavenly Twins, with my highlights:



".. that there has been one Reformation, and that another is coming." Say whaaat?

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Good question. As the following link discusses, Draco is part of the Hercules mythos - which his 12 labors are clearly zodiacal in nature. Draco guards the golden apples, which are probably allusions to the Cosmic Tree whose trunk is sometimes referred to as the Axis Mundi. And in the Hercules 'cycle' the dragon, Ladon, is killed. But Jerry will require more than this. :rolleyes:

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Thanks Ameen.

I'm currently stuck on deciding how to continue on this project as the next part is supposed to be discussing John Bartram's work on the Flavian association with 'Chrest', and his revealing that the Codex Sinaiticus originally spelled out 'Chrest' 3(?) times and someone clearly erased portions of the 'E' and turned them into 'I'. I think somewhere on the forum I have shown a photo of this. Unfortunately, for now, because Bartram has pulled down his material from his Google page, apparently because he is starting a book on the topic.

Ameen Khalid

New Member
Wow, we have a lot of Info in our FB Site. Kingdom of Heaven.

We just Kicked Off another site called Kingdom Of Heaven: Masada

Jerry Russell

Staff member
Unfortunately, for now, because Bartram has pulled down his material from his Google page, apparently because he is starting a book on the topic.
The bad news is, Bartram's google+ and blogspot sites are still gone. And, I don't think he has a book deal.

The good news is, he has continued to be very active recently at Quora, and he deleted his "goodbye to social media" post. Much of his material is still available at Quora, and he's available for questions. Bartram has two personal subdomains at Quora: ("Conjuring Jesus")

Here is a brief discussion of the use of 'Chrest' in Codex Sinaiticus:

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Jerry has located a mirror of John Bartram's Google+ pages. See:

In this page Bartram discusses the relationship of Gnosticism to Chrestianity and Judaism, and lays out a few ground rules for his discussion:

Let us set the few ground rules here:

  • There is no Christianity in this period; this I demonstrated years ago and in all my repetitions since, nobody has shown otherwise.
  • A new religion appears in the first century of the modern era and its divine man is explicitly given the title Chrest; his first name is never spelled out, but abbreviated, usually as IS. This religion is therefore termed properly Chrestianity.
  • The gospel stories are not historical, of Judea in the first century; they are literary and comparison of them to historical accounts shows conclusively that they parody these people and the events with which they are associated.
  • The New Testament is not a product of observant, messianic Jews, or Judaism, but are principally Greek and eventually imperial.
I could go on, but to put simply, there is no Christianity until centuries later and therefore gnostic thought is not contemporaneous to Christianity; on the other hand, it is contemporaneous to Chrestianity.

In Bartram's discussion he discusses the divine twin mythos from a different, but complementary, approach to J. Rendell Harris's. He shows a mithraeum panel from Dura Europos showing Mithras riding a horse while hunting, a main attribute of the Dioscuri twins.

Incidentally and not discussed here, as seen by Bartram's ground rules, his complaint with Atwill's CM is that such gospels are too early, yet he accords the Flavians as being 'Chrestians', and at odds with Nero over such.

Bartram likes Bardaisan as being the instigator of the gospels as Source Q. He also likes Bardaisan as contributing to Manichaeism and the Ismaili form of Shia Islam (aka the Nasari, aka the Assassins). Bartram discusses Bardaisan's contact with Buddhism, of which I have speculated whether Christianity is indeed some form of bastardized Buddhism.

From Bartram's page:

Chrestos in opening of Mani epistle; site of ancient Kellis, modern-day Ismant el-Kharab, Egypt
Chrestos being invoked in PGM-IV 1227-64. Greek Magical Papyri

Near Bartram's page conclusion:
Resurrection, as noted above, is an Egyptian theme, which the Ptolemies made their own, coming to a head with their last, Cleopatra VII. This heralds the birth of IS Chrest and Chrestianity; it is now colonial Greek, as is the culture of Edessa in the early-modern era.
This same culture is anti-Jewish, not despite, but because of its own Hellenistic-Jewish elements, as typified by the family of Alexander the Alabarch:
Tiberius Julius Alexander (fl. 1st century) was an equestrian governor and general in the Roman Empire. Born into a wealthy Jewish family of Alexandria but abandoning or neglecting the Jewish religion, he rose to become procurator of Judea (c. 46 – 48) under Claudius. While Prefect of Egypt (66 – 69), he employed his legions against the Alexandrian Jews in a brutal response to ethnic violence, and was instrumental in the Emperor Vespasian's rise to power. In 70, he participated in the Siege of Jerusalem as Titus' second-in-command.
In this regard, we must note how his brother, Marcus Julius Alexander, traded with India (the Petrie Ostraca, mentions his activities at Myos Hormos and Berenice Troglodytica, ports located in the Red Sea between 37-44).
It is through such Chrestians that we see Gnosticism in Egypt, especially after their destruction of Judea, made complete by Hadrian.
Anti-Judaism was a reason for Chrestianity, too, and this was especially true for those Hellenised Jews who supported Rome in its wars against Judea (as earlier, such had supported Antiochus IV Epiphanes, then fled to Egypt).
When Christianity appears, Classical Antiquity is forgotten, especially the history of Judea in the first century, replaced by the unrecognised parody of the New Testament. Surviving Jews are lumped together and often treated as enemy, with forced conversion and legal; restrictions. The various strands of the modern era are classed as heretical.
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
With Bartram's resurrected analysis we can perhaps see his Chrestianity as a logical attempt to merge the various mystery cults of the empire into one, more manageable construction. As I have discussed before (on the blog), it seems that the various mystery cults were much the same at their core, but had been tailored for their respective cultural audiences in different regions. They were likely designed as transitional phases themselves in my opinion.

This kind of an effort with Chrestianity seems also compatible with Flavio Barbiero's contention about how Mithraism formed (simultaneously) as a useful amalgamation of otherwise disparate pagan (and Judaic) aspects. I see little reason that at least at the early stages that Chrestianity and Mithraism might have been one and the same thing. Hence, we can see a reason why the sarcophagus of the 'Christian' Flavia Domitilla and others had such heavy Mithraic symbolism.

Bartram feels that Bardaisan wrote the gospels, and while this gives some extra time to explain why the gospels don't seem to appear until later, I don't see as much value here as Atwill's CM explanation of Josephan / imperial Flavian authorship. We have no idea if Bartram is aware of the issue that Atwill raised with the textually interwoven nature of the gospels with the works of Josephus, remembering that Bartram is not a fan of textual analysis. Also the implications of Christ/Chrest's 'prophecy' of the Second Coming occuring "within the generation" of the disciples, meaning 40 years from the alleged chronological time of the prophecy. This points to Titus as the good chrest and his big accomplishment in 70 CE.

In any case, I feel that Bartram is otherwise spot on, and thus we can better see why earlier gnostics like Valentinus and Marcion were vying for offices in the Roman Church ... of Chrestianity, not Christianity. Later the 'Christian' Church had to distance itself from such persons, now seen as heretics.

The actual transition from Chrestianity to Christianity seems a much easier step to accomplish, especially with the passage of several centuries, and no surviving generational memories to contend with. There is a rationale in that the title of Christ, as anointed savior and messiah, has much more significance than Chrest, the humble 'Good'. And, from an esoteric POV, as detailed by Fideler in Jesus Christ, Sun of God, Christ has the powerful Pythagorean solar gematria, not Chrest.

Chrest was transitional in intent as well, as likely was the earlier Serapis, the latter likely a trial run.

In this next page Bartram discusses the Christian parody made regarding the Suffering Servant motif of Isaiah. I have mentioned the Suffering Servant before, but Bartram's discussion is better in that Isaiah is explicit that the Suffering Servant is the nation and people of Israel (which reduces to the Jews). This leads to Bartram quoting Eisenman's discussion of a parody worthy of Atwill's, in which is included the aspect of circumcision elevated to castration.

In addition to the parody, Bartram lays out how he thinks the various Flavians and such acted out, and his rather late dating of the gospels.

There are no significant texts for Mithraism, yet we have the archaeological evidence of so many mithraeums spread across the empire, starting at the very time that we are to belief that Christianity sprang forth in the orthodox telling. Many of these mithraeums are under basilicas, including at the Vatican. These basilicas were not 'Christian' at the time, they were pagan. As such, I assert that the Chrestians were reading their Chrestian gospels underneath in the sub rosa mithraeums. At the appointed time, the switch was flipped and Chrestianity became Christianity, with the very quick help of some quiet erasures. Like the Freemasons of later in this Augustan Age, the Chrestian mithicists [sic] were the 'elders' of their exoteric pagan congregations and helped the process along if anybody noticed and complained.

The gospels were never mentioned till later, because they were literally kept underground. They were kept underground by a secret society of trusted individuals that had high position in the military and similar. This is evidenced by the various locales that Barbiero discusses, like the high concentration of mithraeums at Ostia, the key port city of Rome.
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Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
In thinking more about Bartram's position on Nero being opposed to the covert Chrestian enterprise in conjunction with my other focus on Donald Trump, there has been much controversy about whether or not Nero has been given a bad reputation or not, by the imperial approved historians of the day.

Whatever the truth, we can see a parallel typology between the narcissistic Nero and Trump. With Epaphroditus and such as the military Flavian generals forming a (Chrestian) Deep State, at the ruling heart of the imperium. Just as reported with Trump, Nero's personal traits were known from childhood, and likely even indulged ... groomed.

Nero's biggest achievements were his self-aggrandizing, Trumpian building efforts, which were built atop the land which had been burnt in the famous fire, which he accused the Deep State Chrestians of fomenting. And then which the Flavians would literally build on top of Nero's works, with the Flavian Amphitheater, aka the Colosseum. Even the name Colosseum steals from Nero's Colossus, the giant golden statue of himself that was converted by the Flavians into a statue of Sol ... the solar cognate of Mithraism's Mithras. And BTW, the general layout of the Colosseum is that of a Vesica Piscis, maybe just an expedient coincidence?

In contrast to Nero's bad reputation, the Flavians (excepting Domitian) were accorded by the imperial approved historians as being among the renowned 'good' emperors, like Augustus and his (hypocritical) Family Values program. Good ... as in 'Chrest' good?

In Trump's imperial court are a legion of modern day 'Chrestian's, an amalgam of Goldman Sachs and Georgetown alumni, the usual suspects and scapegoats. The ultimate leader of the latter, at least, is known by the appellation of Papa Nero.

With the above, below is Bartram's conclusion to his page on the Master and (Suffering) Servant:

The textual tradition is a perversion: its "histories", anti-heresies, its sacred texts. Only a little scholarship is needed to realise that much is fundamentally wrong - the gospels themselves are so self-contradictory that even a little rational thought should ring alarm bells, regardless of the miracles. So why have them and why still teach them - as English law insists - as history? Because they still do the job for which they are designed - they separate us into identifiable groups.
I define the "good" for which Chrest is commonly translated as in "the great and the good" and society needs only a few of these. The simple have their uses, the rebels can be dealt with; what this society is looking for are those who listened, learned and accepted: follow the Roman custom of separating private and public belief - always demonstrate loyalty to the system, your Lord and Master. This is the call of the imperial cult, against which Judas the Galilean rebelled.

In order to draw attention to some feature, it is best to provide contrast, the more extreme the better. And if you don't naturally have such contrast, you must create and provide it. Hence the saying: "If you don't have an enemy, you must create one". You must create, or groom, a Nero, a Domitian, a Judas, a Trump, or even the social construct of a tribe of people with an inverted culture, the tribe of Judah. With the latter, I have shown that Judah, the alleged founder of the tribe, indeed appears to be a contrived literary artifice created for just such an Antithesis. The 'system' of doing so long understood, only the names are changed to protect the perpetrators and the modus operandi.

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
While I frequently like to cite Juvenal's Satire #4, which I call Domitian's Big Fish Story, in support of key Flavian involvement, this also supports Bartram's position on Chrestianity of the Gospels, as the fish involved is actually referring to the esoteric Vesica Piscis, whose sacred geometry renders the ratio number of 153, of which is found in the Parable of the 153 Fishes in the Net. The net is a reference to the net, or 'matrix' perhaps, of the Omphalos stone at Delphi. This latter provides another link to Castor and Pollux and dolphins. The latter in the etymological relationship of 'Delphi' to 'dolphin'. With the exception of Juvenal's satire this is all discussed in Fideler's Jesus Christ, Sun of God. Fideler also discusses the Pythagorean symbolism of the 5,000 fishes as well.

Juvenal's satire also raises the question of Domitian's real role in all of this. In other regards he is connected to the Book of Revelation, it being dated to his time as well. Was this a dirty job, and somebody had to do it? Whatever the case, Domitian's summer villa, where the big fish was taken to, is today the Papal Summer Villa. Just another coincidence.

Bartram similarly discussed Nero, and in one of his quotations it is mentioned controversy about his his reputation, as to whether it is warranted. Bartram provides an graffito mentioning Nero's tutor and that it includes a Chi-Rho, a clue pointing to 'Chrestianity'. This along with matron Antonia Minor. Antonia is yet another interesting person in that she is the daughter of Mark Antony and yet still stays loyal to uncle Augustus (who is responsible for Antony's death. Augustus seems to trust her implicitely in grooming future Romans ... Chrestians (according to Bartram).

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