From Chrest to Christ

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Richard Stanley, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    OK, I will have to make Stellarium charts for those years. I don't remember if I looked around the years prior to 70 CE, but I'll do that as well. Thank Dogod that I only need to keep on the equinox date on September 23 to find candidate years.

    I'm not sure what other planet besides Jupiter would make a good candidate for a new savior, within the 'pagan' mythos of such as Castor and Pollux being the prior (to Jesus) savior sons of Zeus- Jupiter, in any case.

    Isn't the top of most 'decent' people's clothing starting at their shoulders, that is, if they are wearing a hood?
    Arbitrary or not, that's what it is. Maybe some ultra-conspiratorial team of constellation determinators specifically set the number to nine, knowing what the planetary conditions would be on September 23, 2017, and therefore ..... the number is not .... 'arbitrary'
    There's always a dragon (snake) or two in the heavens Jerry. The 'heads', 'horns', and 'crowns' are symbolic imagery borrowed from Daniel where it is explicit that these refer to kingdoms and empires. Possibly we are supposed to apply the precept of 'as below, so above' to the interpretation here.
    .
     
  2. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    Agreed, although it's worth noting that this is not explicitly specified by Rev. 12.

    Sounds like special pleading to me. Surely the virgin would demand clothing to modestly cover her torso, and not just an anchor for her hoodie.

    If indeed there is some ancient standard understanding that Leo contains exactly nine stars, then I would agree. But, are the ancient sources consistent? I don't know. The Wikipedia article describes and depicts the 9-star version; but it also shows an image from ca. 1000 AD with 12 stars, and a modern interpretation involving 15 stars.

    Yes, we presumably should be applying the precept 'as above, so below'. If so, then: for a suitable prophetic match, we should be able to identify the seven crowned heads and ten horns above in the stars, as well as below on the earth. No excuses!! Some generally snake-shaped thing that's always in the sky is not going to cut it.
     
  3. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Ha, I meant to say: "That is, if they are not wearing a hood." Which is more often the case.
     
  4. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    I should have added that in the original context (ca. 70-100 AD) it seems reasonable to demand a complete match between the historical circumstances, the astronomical situation, and the text. As long as there are unsolved pieces of the puzzle, there's room for doubt that we have fully or correctly understood the intent of the original author.

    When the same text is re-used for other purposes, hundreds or thousands of years later, it's much more difficult for an entire scenario to find a complete match. A human endeavor might settle for a partial match, or ironically create circumstances which fulfill at least the earthly aspect of the recycled prophetic text.
     
  5. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Of course, we have already had a commentator on the forum explain the red dragon in cosmological terms. I need to review what he has said, and when we can expect its (a specific solar agitation of Venus) return.

    In any case, I will construct a comparison table of the five different alignments and any more if I can find them.
     
  6. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    After a long afternoon at the Stellarium, I can provide my definitive preliminary report. Out of the four second millennium candidate years (1056, 1293, 1483, 1827) and 2017, the latter was the clear winner in being the most precise, and only dense match for verses 1 and 2 of Revelation 12. The next verses of Rev 12 are clear that the red dragon is a separate event, but does not even allude to how much time will pass in-between. In the next verses after the red dragon it states that 3.5 years will pass before a cosmic war occurs. Thank Trump we'll have a Space Force.

    1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there
    a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev 12 KJV)

    By definition, the Sun must always 'clothe' the woman, as this is the place of the autumn equinox after all. The autumn equinox 'Silver Gate' does move slightly between the years (due to precession of the equinoxes), but always stays within the clothing area.

    2017 was the only year with 3 planets (Mercury, Venus, and Mars) in Leo.

    (Baby) Jupiter always moves inside the woman at this time as must be expected that retrograde motion will appear at this general spot from the perspective of the Earth. However, it is only in 2017 that baby Jupiter stays below the diaphram, as in the other years Jupiter moves 'backwards' up variously towards the breast to shoulder height of the woman.

    As I have noted with 9/11/2001, the Moon is the fastest moving object and hence the most sensitive to precise timing and the observer's longitudinal position. And so, questions could arise as to does one go here by the precise equinoctial position of the Sun, or allow for inevitable shift within a particular calendar system. In any case, there was only one of the second millennium years (1483) when the Moon was close enough to sweep into the position being at the feet of the woman during the equinox.

    According to researcher and author Keith Hunter, the red dragon is represented by Venus, when the Sun and the Moon (and Jupiter?) are also in the proper positions. I need to check this out further, but the spring equinox of 2021 may indeed qualify as this alignment, 3.5 years later, just as Revelation 12 demands. It appears that both Venus and Mercury are in line between the Earth and the Sun, which according to Hunter will blast Venus with a plasma plume, the dragon's tail.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  7. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    In fact, as the spring equinox's Golden Gate is moving ever towards Aquarius, the autumn Silver Gate's Sun will move above Virgo's shoulder towards Leo, and there will not appear to be anymore chances to achieve this first prerequisite alignment, of the equinoctial Sun clothing the woman. And therefore, the verse is talking about an event that could only occur in the Age of Pisces, the one that is currently ending, however ambiguous and/or various it's defined.

    Since there were 4 candidate alignments in the second millennium, we can presume there were a few more similar ones in the first millennium. Unfortunately Sarfati only mentioned the 4 in the second millennium, and so for the time being it will have to wait to research for those. Thankfully Jupiter is only in the region of Virgo every 11 to 12 years on the autumn equinox, but still this will take some time, unless I can find a table of such possible alignments. For now, my guess is that there will indeed be no such precise alignment as 9/23/2017.

    However, I did look at possible alignments around 70 CE and before. There is a candidate alignment at 71 CE and 83 CE, within the Flavian dynastic period. But these do not qualify precisely. Nor do the prior ones moving back in time from there.

    Here is the view of 9/23/2017:

    upload_2018-11-10_13-43-32.jpeg

    Here is 9/23/1827 (the Moon can sweep through the region of the feet, but there is only Mars in Leo):
    upload_2018-11-10_13-49-42.jpeg

    Here is 9/15/1293 (Leo is empty ignoring Uranus, and the Moon is distant):
    upload_2018-11-10_13-52-37.jpeg

    Here is 9/16/1056 (Venus is in Leo and the Moon is too far away):
    upload_2018-11-10_13-55-25.jpeg
     
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  8. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    In Chapter 19 of J. Rendel Harris's The Cult of the Heavenly Twins, he focuses on that the Milanese saints, Protase and Gervase are found on a mosaic with symbols on their clothing that seem plausible to be artistic renderings of the dokana of the Dioscuri twins, Castor and Pollux. And that this very same symbol is also found with a second set of Milanese saints, Nabor and Felix. Harris has gone to earlier lengths to identify Protase and Gervase as being Chritian replacements for the prior local cult of the Doiscuri twins, but then asks who these second pairing is?

    He traces the name Nabor to Persia and the cult of Mithra, and ... an association with the military, the latter the main demographic of the Romanized cult. As such I have copied chapter 19 in full:

    upload_2018-11-11_17-57-23.png

    upload_2018-11-11_18-5-3.png

    upload_2018-11-11_18-5-40.png

    upload_2018-11-11_18-6-14.png


    So with Nabor and Felix we can see the exact same process of Christian transformation of the Mithraic twins to saints as with the Greek twins, who we've already identified as being the same entities in any case. With Mithraism, we also see that the numerous meeting places, many directly underneath Christian churches, were left intact, with all their iconography as well.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    The conclusion to Harris's The Cult of the Heavenly Twins, with my highlights:

    upload_2018-11-14_20-41-32.png

    upload_2018-11-14_20-46-57.png

    ".. that there has been one Reformation, and that another is coming." Say whaaat?
     
  10. A new day

    A new day Member

    Thank you so much for this post! I cannot add anything, but I am wondering if the constellation Draco would
    fit with the 9/23/17 observation?
     
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  11. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Good question. As the following link discusses, Draco is part of the Hercules mythos - which his 12 labors are clearly zodiacal in nature. Draco guards the golden apples, which are probably allusions to the Cosmic Tree whose trunk is sometimes referred to as the Axis Mundi. And in the Hercules 'cycle' the dragon, Ladon, is killed. But Jerry will require more than this. :rolleyes:

    http://www.constellation-guide.com/constellation-list/draco-constellation/
     
  12. Ameen Khalid

    Ameen Khalid New Member

    This is really good info, makes you think
     
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  13. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Administrator

    Thanks Ameen.

    I'm currently stuck on deciding how to continue on this project as the next part is supposed to be discussing John Bartram's work on the Flavian association with 'Chrest', and his revealing that the Codex Sinaiticus originally spelled out 'Chrest' 3(?) times and someone clearly erased portions of the 'E' and turned them into 'I'. I think somewhere on the forum I have shown a photo of this. Unfortunately, for now, because Bartram has pulled down his material from his Google page, apparently because he is starting a book on the topic.
     
  14. Ameen Khalid

    Ameen Khalid New Member

    Wow, we have a lot of Info in our FB Site. Kingdom of Heaven.

    We just Kicked Off another site called Kingdom Of Heaven: Masada
     
  15. Ameen Khalid

    Ameen Khalid New Member

    We say in our Sites All Prophets Are Allegory
     
  16. Jerry Russell

    Jerry Russell Administrator Staff Member

    The bad news is, Bartram's google+ and blogspot sites are still gone. And, I don't think he has a book deal.

    The good news is, he has continued to be very active recently at Quora, and he deleted his "goodbye to social media" post. Much of his material is still available at Quora, and he's available for questions. Bartram has two personal subdomains at Quora:

    https://sacredarchaeology.quora.com

    https://www.quora.com/q/grzkjfwbrqfigrgm ("Conjuring Jesus")

    Here is a brief discussion of the use of 'Chrest' in Codex Sinaiticus:

    https://sacredarchaeology.quora.com/Scholarship-unable-to-handle-Chrest
     

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