Ell of a Ruckus...

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Foe, and the Matrix is more fog. The truth is that the red pill is offered to provide more deception to those that know the blue is false.
This seems a quite plausible argument, and consistent with deceptive 'Machiavellian' thinking (whatever Machiavelli 's real intent with The Prince was). The Recognition of Deceit is a recognized component of an intelligent mind and is even present in many animals. Of course, its presence is necessitated by the practice of Deceit, probably hardwired by the needs of Survival. Or is it a function of Nurture, or perhaps mediated by the latter?
 

Wolfsire

Member
I don't recall specifically, but I suspect he may have said promotion of LBGT as part of Agenda 21 and it related projects. He does not go into that deception in a lot of detail, and, I think is wrong about Larry not having a mole, but it is small compared to her's. However, I looked at a lot more photos. I suspect, as with all their projects, that there is more than one agenda being fulfilled. And I think it is tied into the notion of a Matrix. If nothing else, though, getting him out of the business and dealing with his divorce would also be things to consider.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Bringing the topic back to Kesey, it seems to me that his action was not only a greater order of magnitude, but a different kind of thing, from the situation of an ordinary person who makes compromises with the system. Our accusation is that Kesey, knowing full well that LSD is a psychosis-inducing, dangerous drug; and also knowing full well that it was being promoted by the CIA; nevertheless actively promoted the drug to the youth culture, knowing that it would destroy their ability to react effectively to the challenges of the time, such as the Vietnam war.

Now, you can still argue that Kesey had no such understanding -- that he really thought that he was "liberating" LSD from the CIA labs, and giving it to his followers in order to help them fight against "The Combine". I wouldn't want to make an argument like that, but I'm sure that Kesey could hire an attorney who could make the case. Maybe Joe's literary analysis would not be enough to convince a jury, I don't know.

Putting Kesey on the same plane as some average worker who takes his paycheck in USD and uses those dollars at the store to buy groceries, seems like sophistry to me. I also use USD, not only for transactions with businesses that won't take Bitcoin, but also as a more reliable store of value (at least over short time frames) compared to Bitcoin, which is vulnerable to huge day-to-day fluctuations both up and down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out that big money-center banks have a hand in manipulating the Bitcoin market, like they have a hand in virtually every other market.

To your point that money is a social convention: certainly that's true of USD, and also Bitcoin to some extent. As Marx pointed out, gold and silver have intrinsic properties of scarcity and desirability that make them especially useful: "Money is by nature gold and silver", and efforts to turn them into ordinary commodities have failed to some extent. But they were much better money (a more stable store of value) when they were also backed by the state. Bitcoin has the illusion of scarcity, in that Bitcoin are produced slowly by an expensive computational process. But I don't see any reason why an infinite variety of competing algorithms couldn't be invented, to flood the market with Bitcoin-like substitutes. It seems to me that the situation is very similar to the famous Dutch tulip craze.

Maybe you have the idea that we're Libertarians, or anarchists. We're not. We're advocates for democracy, and we'd like to see a better democracy through better education of the voters. We'd like to see the veil of secrecy torn away from the system, so that people can see what they're voting for. I feel confident that the voters will understand the benefits of having a functional monetary system. Exactly what that would mean, would be a matter to be worked out through democratic political process.

The Harari book looks interesting, but I'm not sure what you think we would learn from it. What does his research have to say about the "global vision paradigm" and why are you recommending it?
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
Bringing the topic back to Kesey, it seems to me that his action was not only a greater order of magnitude, but a different kind of thing, from the situation of an ordinary person who makes compromises with the system. Our accusation is that Kesey, knowing full well that LSD is a psychosis-inducing, dangerous drug; and also knowing full well that it was being promoted by the CIA; nevertheless actively promoted the drug to the youth culture, knowing that it would destroy their ability to react effectively to the challenges of the time, such as the Vietnam war.

Now, you can still argue that Kesey had no such understanding -- that he really thought that he was "liberating" LSD from the CIA labs, and giving it to his followers in order to help them fight against "The Combine". I wouldn't want to make an argument like that, but I'm sure that Kesey could hire an attorney who could make the case. Maybe Joe's literary analysis would not be enough to convince a jury, I don't know.
I still have a problem with this general premise. It is my understanding that such as LSD will amplify an individual's various pre-existing mental neuroses / issues, and as such the experience, as to having a Bad Trip or not, is highly variable. That so many could take 'thousands' of trips without being complete wreaks seems to speak to this.

Where am I going wrong in wondering if there were yet Counter-Culture people heavily involved in the protests at the end of the war (a war promulgated by the Vatican via Lady Fatima and Cardinal Spellman BTW)? I have no doubt that this was the intention of the Matrix Establishment, but it seems to me, as to others, that this experiment was a massive failure. Ironically, scientists and clinicians are administering such psychedelics to people near the end of their lives, ... to ease their neurotic fears about what comes next. I assert that these neuroses have mostly been induced directly or indirectly by living under the Stepford Wive mentality within the supposedly non-debased Matrix culture, e.g. the Fear of God.
 

Ionut Dobrinescu

New Member
I also use USD, not only for transactions with businesses that won't take Bitcoin, but also as a more reliable store of value (at least over short time frames) compared to Bitcoin, which is vulnerable to huge day-to-day fluctuations both up and down. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it turns out that big money-center banks have a hand in manipulating the Bitcoin market, like they have a hand in virtually every other market. But they were much better money (a more stable store of value) when they were also backed by the state. Bitcoin has the illusion of scarcity, in that Bitcoin are produced slowly by an expensive computational process. But I don't see any reason why an infinite variety of competing algorithms couldn't be invented, to flood the market with Bitcoin-like substitutes. It seems to me that the situation is very similar to the famous Dutch tulip craze.
Actually, the Bitcoin philosophy is as much about democracy and freedom as it is about money. It is a product conceived outside of the Matrix, for true liberation purposes. The algorithm is open-source and indeed there are several flavors of cryptocurrencies available, not only Bitcoin, yet none has become just yet legal tender for all private or public debt. And, believe it or not, government sanction on the cryptocurrency in circulation may not even be needed after all, so long as the Internet is omnipresent and indestructible! It takes a bit of context to understand the history of money and the cryptographic terminology but it is for sure easier than Old Greek or Aramaic. The cryptocurrency is definitely more rational than central banking, or Christianity for that matter, and more reliable than Jesus Christ, regardless of one's faith in it.

The Harari book looks interesting, but I'm not sure what you think we would learn from it. What does his research have to say about the "global vision paradigm" and why are you recommending it?
Harari, himself a colorful revisionist, has his unique way of exposing the shifting paradigms throughout human history. While zooming out on the whole history of humankind one may learn that the contradictions are part of every human culture, responsible for the creativity and dynamism of our species, while consistency is the playground of dull minds. Advanced revisionism on matters of intimate religious faith may be easier to accomodate after becoming somewhat familiar with Harari's anthropological discours.
 
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Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
It is my understanding that such as LSD will amplify an individual's various pre-existing mental neuroses / issues, and as such the experience, as to having a Bad Trip or not, is highly variable. That so many could take 'thousands' of trips without being complete wreaks seems to speak to this.
No question that the effects of LSD are highly variable, and the response can depend on pre-existing conditions as well as other factors. But the chances of a bad outcome are very high: see, for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502998/

it seems to me, as to others, that this experiment was a massive failure.
No doubt the experiment did not turn out exactly as intended. So now the preferred psychoactive drugs are Prozac and Zoloft for depression, and Ritalin for ADHD. Less spectacular than LSD in their effects, but probably better at keeping people tranquilized.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
No question that the effects of LSD are highly variable, and the response can depend on pre-existing conditions as well as other factors. But the chances of a bad outcome are very high: see, for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502998/
Uhmm, Jerry, that study was from 1967, performed by certain conforming men sporting flattops. This is the propagandic equivalent of Reefer Madness on steroids. And note that they only deigned to study the lower classes, albeit that is the main demographic of LA County Hospital.

The Wikipedia link provides no such indication and if there had been this high a rate, no pun intended, then this truly would have been problematic. It appears to me that the real reason the CIA was interested in LSD was that it induced suggestibility across the board while one was under the influence, and it confirms that such as schizophrenics have higher rates of problems, which only makes sense.

In a 2011 survey of 292 clinical experts in Scotland, LSD ranked 4th lowest in personal harm and 6th lowest in social harm out of 19 common recreational drugs.[26]

Mental disorders
LSD may trigger panic attacks or feelings of extreme anxiety, colloquially referred to as a "bad trip". There is evidence that people with severe mental illnesses like schizophrenia have a higher likelihood of experiencing adverse effects from taking LSD (see psychosis for further details).[29][unreliable medical source] No real prolonged effects have been proven, although PTSD has been reported after some intensely distressful LSD experiences.[medical citation needed]

Recent evidence, however, has suggested against the idea that the use of LSD puts one at risk for developing long lasting mental disorders. An analysis of information from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health showed that the use of psychedelic drugs such as LSD is associated with significantly reduced odds of past month psychological distress, past year suicidal thinking, past year suicidal planning, and past year suicide attempt.[30]

Suggestibility
While publicly available documents indicate that the CIA and Department of Defense have discontinued research into the use of LSD as a means of mind control,[31] research from the 1960s suggests there exists evidence that both mentally ill and healthy people are more suggestible while under its influence.[32][33][non-primary source needed]
Psychosis

Historical data suggests that there has been the occasional incidence of long-term LSD induced psychosis in people who appeared to be healthy prior to taking the drug.[34]

Address : <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD#cite_note-34>

Where it seems to have backfired for the CIA was in the nature of entheogens generally, as to the ability to help break past self or externally induced mental issues. This is why the shamen have long used such as ayahuasca.

In addition to assistance with relieving the anxiety of the dying, discussed elsewhere in the link, contrary to the above excerpt, it is also being used to assist with overcoming PTSD. In any such usage, one must have a person standing by to assist one through any such bad reactions, due to the drug's amplification of negative problems.

The reason the UN demands that it be illegal is that this is indeed a danger to the Matrix, and in this sense it is from lifting the other Fog.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
No doubt the experiment did not turn out exactly as intended. So now the preferred psychoactive drugs are Prozac and Zoloft for depression, and Ritalin for ADHD. Less spectacular than LSD in their effects, but probably better at keeping people tranquilized.
Xanax and Quaaludes maybe, but the ones you mentioned? They are the opposite of tranquilizing, and none of these are hallucinogenic in the least, which seems to be the performance threshold for what the CIA was wanting to accomplish via suggestibility.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
the opposite of tranquilizing
Agreed, and I should have been more careful in my choice of words. Preoccupied, entertained, and thus pacified in a political although not psychological sense? However, I agree that "suggestibility" was also an important factor in the CIA's interest in LSD. I don't know what the suggestibility effects are for Prozac, Zoloft, Ritalin, Xanax, Quaaludes & etc., although obviously they aren't hallucinogens.

The Wiki article admits to "occasional incidence of long-term LSD induced psychosis", while the "conforming men sporting flattops" indicated perhaps a more significant issue. However, this LA County Hospital study was admittedly lacking in any control group, or long-term followup to define "extended", or for that matter any clear definition of what they mean by "psychosis".

About those ancient shamans and their Ayahuasca and so forth, is it possible that they had a similar agenda of inducing passivity & suggestibility in the flock? Although I wouldn't deny that shamans would also have enjoyed getting a 'buzz' as much as anyone else.
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
In a 2011 survey of 292 clinical experts in Scotland, LSD ranked 4th lowest in personal harm and 6th lowest in social harm out of 19 common recreational drugs.[26]
I neglected to mention that LSD was ranked lower in harm than nicotine and alcohol, albeit we are talking about Scotland with the latter.



However, this LA County Hospital study was admittedly lacking in any control group, or long-term followup to define "extended", or for that matter any clear definition of what they mean by "psychosis".
It might also be helpful to note that this study period was in the immediate aftermath and locale of the Watts Riots, when we were also made to fear pretty much everything that went "Boo", at the same time that we were being confronted by the troubadour's messages and such.

Hollywood had me all revved up to go kill Commies at that time, and thankfully through Some Alternate Cultural Process, by the time I was of age, I started to figure out there was something rotten in Saigon. Among other things it was heroin (see the graph above). South Vietnam Air Force general and later President, Nguyen Cao Ky (by default a good Roman Catholic), was running one of the largest heroin rings, and his was selling it directly to American servicemen. But, at least he died a hero here in the USA.

About those ancient shamans and their Ayahuasca and so forth, is it possible that they had a similar agenda of inducing passivity & suggestibility in the flock? Although I wouldn't deny that shamans would also have enjoyed getting a 'buzz' as much as anyone else.
To the larger point, I'm not sure that you have yet proven the case about inducing passivity, directly at least. Maybe mass passivity, to the extent that the audience was under the influence, was indeed induced by the performances and external experiences the users underwent at the time.

If so, then this suggests that suggestibility can also be an agent of 'Good', whatever that is. That seems to be the basis of the work with the dying and PTSD. This might just as well be stated for shamen, generally, albeit that malfeasant practices have indeed been documented amongst some of them. Indeed, for those who claim to have seriously studied the use of entheogens amongst indigenous tribal peoples, this is the rule rather than the exception.

My understanding of the ayahuasca experience is that it is not for the weak of heart, and done for the sake of 'enjoyment'. Such peoples are noted for have rites of passage (like Vision Quests), and as such I'm guessing that those peoples with access to such compounds might use (have used) them amongst the laity, so to speak. But it is my understanding that a real shaman is the one who takes multiple 'trips' from time to time as needed, i.e. for addressing certain issues and not for the purpose of entertainment. These particular shamen report that the Cosmic Serpent informs them of such things as to what plants to use for medicines and specifically how to prepare them for optimal benefit. One theory is that this agency is the effect of the drug on the user's own neuronal DNA (the serpent) that then somehow speaks to its owner's mind. Instead, pharmaceutical companies send their researchers into the rain forest laboriously collecting samples to laboriously test for medicines and Dogod knows what, that is before Loren's friends finish burning down all the rain forests.

But in terms of Weaponized Anthropology, its interesting to note on the above graph how the CIA was forced to admit that it was complicit in the crack cocaine trafficking to urban American blacks, and that similarly how such as the British Crown and other elites proffitted handsomely from the opium and heroin trade. One of the primary responsibilities of American troops in Afghanistan was to protect the opium activity.

The shamen are generally willing to supervise one's experience, and I think that in the interests of Science that one of the group should undertake a 'trip' down there. I would happily volunteer but for my condition, and unfortunately Loren didn't move to Ecuador. That said, others have already done so and written about it.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Aside from the question of what's the most harmful drug, and what different types of harms are imparted, it's interesting that the above graph is saying that all of these drugs are harmful to one degree or another.

But in addition to the harms, they also must have personal including pleasure, otherwise they would't be so popular. Maybe that's even true of Ayahuasca? I understand that it has its hedonic downside, but also is similar in its psychological effect to DMT, which causes interesting experiences of contact with hallucinated alien or spiritual beings.

About those stories about shamanic vision quests, how reliable are these accounts? There have been complaints that anthropological reports from Gordon Wasson, Margaret Mead, Carlos Castenada and the like, have been quite fraudulently romanticized.

While we are talking about passivity, maybe it's worth mentioning that the costs of raising a large family (or any family) might also induce a certain amount of social passivity? That is, who is going to rock the boat if it might result in harm to the family (such as job loss, social ostracism and so forth)? And who even has any time for politics when they're busy taking care of little kids?
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
I suppose that killing either physical or mental pain might be conflated with "pleasure". Other than mostly youth (mostly repressed Americans) who think that binge drinking is somehow entertaining and fitting with their otherwise uplifting (not really) life pursuits (in a deranged sense especially around institutions of so-called "getting higher" learning), the next most common abuse is probably that of people wanting to "drown their sorrows" (alcohol) while the narcotic varieties attraction is the liberating freedom from such as pain sensations. (Alcoholics are likely genetically predisposed to need more vitamin B's and thus end up craving alcohol, which further depletes their B levels.)

But with alcohol in America, at least, we can see the perverse consequences of moral do-gooderism, where the fear of exposure (of anything that smacks of artificially high moral impurity for that matter) to the young causes harmful backlashes, e.g. the need to experience the forbidden "adult" experience to the max, combined with traditional rebellion against the parent and authority phases. From alcohol we can extrapolate to all kinds of induced repressions stemming from Abrahamic religions' built-in arbitrary 'laws' based on the authors' notions of morality (or need to control) at the time, and as modified later. All fear conditioned by the perverse carrot and stick notions of Heaven or Hell.

No wonder some people might have bad trips.
 
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