Could someone give me a summary on Dr. Atwill's new parallels in his book about Shakespeare?

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hello Titus,

Joe's book "Shakespeare's Secret Messiah" is essentially two books in one. The first section of the book is an analysis of the Shakespeare plays, arguing that the author "Shakespeare" knew that the Gospels were really based on the exploits of the Flavian emperors in the Jewish war. In this section, the only mention of Domitian is that in the play Titus Andronicus, the character Titus has a brother Marcus who was a murderer of flies. According to Suetonius, Titus's brother Domitian loved to spend hours in seclusion stabbing flies with a sharp stylus.

The second part of the book claims that after Titus's death in 81 AD, Domitian set about to re-invent the Christian religion and upgrade himself to divine status as a third member of the Trinity, along with 'father' Vespasian and 'son' Titus. Joe argues that the gospel of John, the book of Revelation, and the book of Acts were all written under Domitian's supervision, and the Pauline letters must have also been heavily redacted at least. The parallels in his analysis are mostly drawn from Suetonius.

Does this help? I'd encourage you to contact Joe directly at <joeatwill@gmail.com> and maybe he could authorize a review copy of the book for you.
 
Thank you! I am a big fan (of Dr. Atwill), using conclusions (of Atwill's books),kicking in notorius gruesome, superstitious beliefs of Christianity will be easier than ever!!

Edit: also 138 people alone died yesterday in my country because some evangelicals went to churches without masks because ''God will protect us''
 
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Hello Titus,

Joe's book "Shakespeare's Secret Messiah" is essentially two books in one. The first section of the book is an analysis of the Shakespeare plays, arguing that the author "Shakespeare" knew that the Gospels were really based on the exploits of the Flavian emperors in the Jewish war. In this section, the only mention of Domitian is that in the play Titus Andronicus, the character Titus has a brother Marcus who was a murderer of flies. According to Suetonius, Titus's brother Domitian loved to spend hours in seclusion stabbing flies with a sharp stylus.

The second part of the book claims that after Titus's death in 81 AD, Domitian set about to re-invent the Christian religion and upgrade himself to divine status as a third member of the Trinity, along with 'father' Vespasian and 'son' Titus. Joe argues that the gospel of John, the book of Revelation, and the book of Acts were all written under Domitian's supervision, and the Pauline letters must have also been heavily redacted at least. The parallels in his analysis are mostly drawn from Suetonius.

Does this help? I'd encourage you to contact Joe directly at <joeatwill@gmail.com> and maybe he could authorize a review copy of the book for you.
I do have a question! What would be an example of the parallel in Suetonius (Domitian section) and the book of Revelation???
 

Ruby Gray

Member
Thank you! I am a big fan (of Dr. Atwill), using conclusions (of Atwill's books),kicking in notorius gruesome, superstitious beliefs of Christianity will be easier than ever!!

Edit: also 138 people alone died yesterday in my country because some evangelicals went to churches without masks because ''God will protect us''
Of course that may not be the entire reason.
Nobody wears masks in Sweden, nor ever did and their death rate has long since dropped almost to zero.
It's not about the masks, which come in a box with the disclaimer that they are not protective against viruses.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hello Titus,

I'm sorry I missed this --

What would be an example of the parallel in Suetonius (Domitian section) and the book of Revelation???
... somehow it got caught by the site's spam filter.

Here is a summary of parallels between Domitian in Suetonius, and the 'Lord God' of Revelation. From SSM, pp. 267-269:

For clarification, I present the following list of the characteristics shared by the two ‘Gods’ below. In the list, Revelation’s characteristics of the ‘Lord God’ are given first, followed by the citation of Suetonius’ parallel descriptions of Domitian.
While some of the connections are simply historical facts that the author expected his readers to be familiar with, and others are trivial or comic parallels, some parallels so complex that they indicate a deliberate linkage in and of themselves. Examples of these complex parallels are the ‘raised a ‘day’s wages by a third and increased grain and decreased wine’ parallel (Revelation 6:6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7) and the ‘gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her lovers’ parallel found in Revelation 2:20 and Suetonius, Domitian, 8.
As is always the case, however, when attempting to determine if some dependency exists between two works of literature, the parallels must be judged as a collection. And when judged this way, the parallels leave little doubt as to the identity of the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation. Moreover, the author of Revelation wrote his work for those who understand the typology presented earlier in the New Testament. In other words: the New Testament was designed to be read in its extant sequence, and the authors use the ‘secret knowledge’ the reader has developed by decoding the prior text as building blocks to be used by the reader in understanding the further text.
  • Rode a white horse (Suetonius, Domitian, 2).
  • Inner circle were winged creatures with multiple eyes (Suetonius, Domitian, 3).
  • Outer circle wore crowns (Suetonius, Domitian, 4).
  • Congregation wore white (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Both were called the ‘Lord God’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 13).
  • The ‘Lord God’ was an archer (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
  • Throne room was encircled with a rainbow and was next to a sea (Suetonius, Domitian, 5&6).
  • Raised a ‘day’s wages’ of soldiers by a third at the point he increased grain and decreased wine (Revelation 6, 6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7).
  • Gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her and her lovers (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Attacked sexual immorality (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Opposed “those who claim they are Jews but are not” (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Was the first and the last – the alpha and the omega – Domitian maintained that he was both the first of the Flavian Caesars and the last (Suetonius, Domitian 13).
  • Was the ‘morning star’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 16).
  • Had feet of bronze (Suetonius, Domitian, 18).
  • Battled beast with two horns (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
Among the historical parallels between the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were the following:
  • Was a ‘living god’
  • Had the power to execute subjects
  • Had a Church in Ephesus that was the first in order of importance (Domitian built his personal Temple there).
  • Had a group of churches in Asia Minor.
  • Father was a God.
  • The ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were both the ‘Christ’ (Suetonius, Vespasian 4).
  • Was part of a trinity of gods that shared a ‘godhead’ – Domitian was one of the three Flavian Caesars, two of whom had already been deified by the Senate, and like them, he possessed the imperial ‘pneuma’ or divine spirit.
  • Finally, - the obvious is always overlooked - the ‘lord god’ Domitian possessed a mail system capable of sending letters to the seven cities named in Revelation.
 
Hello Titus,

I'm sorry I missed this --



... somehow it got caught by the site's spam filter.

Here is a summary of parallels between Domitian in Suetonius, and the 'Lord God' of Revelation. From SSM, pp. 267-269:

For clarification, I present the following list of the characteristics shared by the two ‘Gods’ below. In the list, Revelation’s characteristics of the ‘Lord God’ are given first, followed by the citation of Suetonius’ parallel descriptions of Domitian.
While some of the connections are simply historical facts that the author expected his readers to be familiar with, and others are trivial or comic parallels, some parallels so complex that they indicate a deliberate linkage in and of themselves. Examples of these complex parallels are the ‘raised a ‘day’s wages by a third and increased grain and decreased wine’ parallel (Revelation 6:6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7) and the ‘gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her lovers’ parallel found in Revelation 2:20 and Suetonius, Domitian, 8.
As is always the case, however, when attempting to determine if some dependency exists between two works of literature, the parallels must be judged as a collection. And when judged this way, the parallels leave little doubt as to the identity of the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation. Moreover, the author of Revelation wrote his work for those who understand the typology presented earlier in the New Testament. In other words: the New Testament was designed to be read in its extant sequence, and the authors use the ‘secret knowledge’ the reader has developed by decoding the prior text as building blocks to be used by the reader in understanding the further text.
  • Rode a white horse (Suetonius, Domitian, 2).
  • Inner circle were winged creatures with multiple eyes (Suetonius, Domitian, 3).
  • Outer circle wore crowns (Suetonius, Domitian, 4).
  • Congregation wore white (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Both were called the ‘Lord God’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 13).
  • The ‘Lord God’ was an archer (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
  • Throne room was encircled with a rainbow and was next to a sea (Suetonius, Domitian, 5&6).
  • Raised a ‘day’s wages’ of soldiers by a third at the point he increased grain and decreased wine (Revelation 6, 6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7).
  • Gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her and her lovers (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Attacked sexual immorality (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Opposed “those who claim they are Jews but are not” (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Was the first and the last – the alpha and the omega – Domitian maintained that he was both the first of the Flavian Caesars and the last (Suetonius, Domitian 13).
  • Was the ‘morning star’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 16).
  • Had feet of bronze (Suetonius, Domitian, 18).
  • Battled beast with two horns (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
Among the historical parallels between the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were the following:
  • Was a ‘living god’
  • Had the power to execute subjects
  • Had a Church in Ephesus that was the first in order of importance (Domitian built his personal Temple there).
  • Had a group of churches in Asia Minor.
  • Father was a God.
  • The ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were both the ‘Christ’ (Suetonius, Vespasian 4).
  • Was part of a trinity of gods that shared a ‘godhead’ – Domitian was one of the three Flavian Caesars, two of whom had already been deified by the Senate, and like them, he possessed the imperial ‘pneuma’ or divine spirit.
  • Finally, - the obvious is always overlooked - the ‘lord god’ Domitian possessed a mail system capable of sending letters to the seven cities named in Revelation.
Thank you! Question, do you think Suetonius was involved in the creation of Christianity?? And what do you mean by had a couple of ''churches' in Asia minor?
 
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Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
do you think Suetonius was involved in the creation of Christianity??
Good question! His book "The Twelve Caesars" appears to have been written in about AD 121 under Trajan Hadrian, and seems to be very critical of Domitian. So if Revelation have been written under Domitian who died in 96, how could it have been based on Suetonius's narrative? I don't recall Joe ever commenting about this question. Perhaps Suetonius was working with an earlier history, or maybe he was intentionally satirizing Revelation, with the intent to clue us in.

And what do you mean by had a couple of ''churches' in Asia minor?
Joe was referring to the temples of the Roman Imperial Cult (emperor worship), which were in the same seven cities named in Revelation 1:11.

Your post got caught in the spam filter again! "Akismet Matched", it says. I never even knew the forum was running Akismet.
 
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Good question! His book "The Twelve Caesars" appears to have been written in about AD 121 under Trajan, and seems to be very critical of Domitian. So if Revelation have been written under Domitian who died in 96, how could it have been based on Suetonius's narrative? I don't recall Joe ever commenting about this question. Perhaps Suetonius was working with an earlier history, or maybe he was intentionally satirizing Revelation, with the intent to clue us in.



Joe was referring to the temples of the Roman Imperial Cult (emperor worship), which were in the same seven cities named in Revelation 1:11.

Your post got caught in the spam filter again! "Akismet Matched", it says. I never even knew the forum was running Akismet.
Well I guess I am a spammer lol. I found the parallels fairly convincing though the imperial cult thing isn't really convincing to me. For all I know the imperial cult was everywhere at that time...
 

Seeker

Active Member
"The Twelve Caesars" appears to have been written in about AD 121 under Trajan
Nitpick, this would have been written under Hadrian, as Trajan passed away in 117. Suetonius would have been a young man during the reign of Domitian, and he was a close friend of Pliny the Younger. Pliny actually had the achievement of rising in rank and surviving Domitian's reign, becoming quaestor attached to the Emperor's staff, and praetor, among several other positions. During the reign of the Emperor Trajan, Suetonius may have served on Pliny's staff.
 
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I will write a short revie
Hello Titus,

I'm sorry I missed this --



... somehow it got caught by the site's spam filter.

Here is a summary of parallels between Domitian in Suetonius, and the 'Lord God' of Revelation. From SSM, pp. 267-269:

For clarification, I present the following list of the characteristics shared by the two ‘Gods’ below. In the list, Revelation’s characteristics of the ‘Lord God’ are given first, followed by the citation of Suetonius’ parallel descriptions of Domitian.
While some of the connections are simply historical facts that the author expected his readers to be familiar with, and others are trivial or comic parallels, some parallels so complex that they indicate a deliberate linkage in and of themselves. Examples of these complex parallels are the ‘raised a ‘day’s wages by a third and increased grain and decreased wine’ parallel (Revelation 6:6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7) and the ‘gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her lovers’ parallel found in Revelation 2:20 and Suetonius, Domitian, 8.
As is always the case, however, when attempting to determine if some dependency exists between two works of literature, the parallels must be judged as a collection. And when judged this way, the parallels leave little doubt as to the identity of the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation. Moreover, the author of Revelation wrote his work for those who understand the typology presented earlier in the New Testament. In other words: the New Testament was designed to be read in its extant sequence, and the authors use the ‘secret knowledge’ the reader has developed by decoding the prior text as building blocks to be used by the reader in understanding the further text.
  • Rode a white horse (Suetonius, Domitian, 2).
  • Inner circle were winged creatures with multiple eyes (Suetonius, Domitian, 3).
  • Outer circle wore crowns (Suetonius, Domitian, 4).
  • Congregation wore white (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Both were called the ‘Lord God’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 13).
  • The ‘Lord God’ was an archer (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
  • Throne room was encircled with a rainbow and was next to a sea (Suetonius, Domitian, 5&6).
  • Raised a ‘day’s wages’ of soldiers by a third at the point he increased grain and decreased wine (Revelation 6, 6 and Suetonius, Domitian, 7).
  • Gave a prophetess chance to repent then cast her on a bed of suffering and executed her and her lovers (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Attacked sexual immorality (Suetonius, Domitian, 8).
  • Opposed “those who claim they are Jews but are not” (Suetonius, Domitian, 12).
  • Was the first and the last – the alpha and the omega – Domitian maintained that he was both the first of the Flavian Caesars and the last (Suetonius, Domitian 13).
  • Was the ‘morning star’ (Suetonius, Domitian, 16).
  • Had feet of bronze (Suetonius, Domitian, 18).
  • Battled beast with two horns (Suetonius, Domitian, 19).
Among the historical parallels between the ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were the following:
  • Was a ‘living god’
  • Had the power to execute subjects
  • Had a Church in Ephesus that was the first in order of importance (Domitian built his personal Temple there).
  • Had a group of churches in Asia Minor.
  • Father was a God.
  • The ‘Lord God’ of Revelation and Domitian were both the ‘Christ’ (Suetonius, Vespasian 4).
  • Was part of a trinity of gods that shared a ‘godhead’ – Domitian was one of the three Flavian Caesars, two of whom had already been deified by the Senate, and like them, he possessed the imperial ‘pneuma’ or divine spirit.
  • Finally, - the obvious is always overlooked - the ‘lord god’ Domitian possessed a mail system capable of sending letters to the seven cities named in Revelation.
I will write a short review of the parallels here. I kinda dissagre with some.

For the white horse I don't think it is very good. Suetonius also describes Nero on a white horse. Also it seems that the author of the Book of Revelation took a bit from the Book of Zechariah, which also describes horses in the same colors in a vision.

For the flies parallel I also think it is not very good. It takes a lot of from the context of the jewish apocalyptic texts.

For the crowns parallel, I think it works perfectly well.

For the white robes parallel I am kinda split on the issue but I would say it works.

For the ''Lord God'' , I think it streches it a bit.

For the archer one, I would say it is very good.

For the throne, I didn't really understand. It is next to a sea as Suetonius says but where is the rainbow? I still think it works.

Aren't Revelation 6:6 and Suetonius, Domitian 7 in direct contradiction; In Revelation 6:6 it tells us to not ruin the wine, while in Suetonius, Domitian orders destruction of vineyards. It still works well. Satire could be used to make two accounts contradict.

Adultress one is the closest here.

For fighting Jews, I don't see how Domitian attacked those who were faking being jewish, but the parallel fits. Both attack jews.

For Domtian first and the last, it works great.

For the morning star, I think it is great.

For the bronze feet, I just think it is bad.

For the two horns, hmmmm. I am still thinking about it.

All in all I think I am not super convinced about the Domitian stuff though I think I am open to the idea.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Rode a white horse (Suetonius, Domitian, 2).
Actually, as far as white horses go, the Domitian of Suetonius could match up to the First of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse (I did not read Joe's book, but am guessing that he means the white horse rider of Revelation 19:11-21, who is described as "KING OF KINGS" and "LORD OF LORDS", verse 16)-

Revelation 6:2

“And I saw, and behold a WHITE HORSE: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth CONQUERING, and to CONQUER.”

Suetonius, Domitian 2

"his (Domitian) litter had to follow his father’s (Vespasian) and brother’s (Titus) carriage, as often as they went abroad; but he attended them in their triumph for the CONQUEST of Judaea, mounted on a WHITE HORSE."

So could Domitian also be the Antichrist, as has been suggested in the past?
 
The problem is that it says ''attended.'' Also isn't the guy on the white in the book of Revelation a bad guy (atleast in Revelation 6)? As far as I can say, white horse (and other horses )concept was borrowed from Zechariah 1:8

8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse. He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.

And:

Zechariah 6:3

3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful

So yep.

Also Nero is said to come on a white horse in Suetonius:

''..he entered that city with white horses through a part of the wall...''
 

Seeker

Active Member
The problem is that it says ''attended.'
Exactly. Domitian was given the right to accompany his father and brother in their triumph riding a white horse, instead of following them in a carriage, as if he had actually taken part in the conquest of Jerusalem also, and the rider of that first (white) horse, in Revelation 6:2, had "a crown (that) was given unto him".
 
Exactly. Domitian was given the right to accompany his father and brother in their triumph riding a white horse, instead of following them in a carriage, as if he had actually taken part in the conquest of Jerusalem also, and the rider of that first (white) horse, in Revelation 6:2, had "a crown (that) was given unto him".
There is a closer parallel to Revelation 6:2 in Josephus, In his first book, I can't really recall where...
 
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