Alternative Genealogy

Seeker

Well-Known Member
Besides the continental European male Baux lines with surname changes, an undocumented family story has a Bertrand de Baux coming to Normandy in 929, and having his name changed to Vaux. He is supposed to be the ancestor of Robert and Aitard de Vaux, confirmed in the 1086 Domesday Book as holding land from Roger Bigod in Norfolk, Suffolk, and Essex. Their documented male line Vaux descendants in England were the Lords of Gilsland in Cumbria, and the Barons of Harrowden, Northamptonshire. Speculation would have the Vaux as the original ancestors of the Fauxe/Fawkes family of Farnley Hall, Yorkshire, where Guy Fawkes may have his forebears from, and the ffolkes Baronets of Hillington, Norfolk.
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
A member of a branch of that ffolkes family of Baronets, Martin Folkes (1690-1754), was a distinguished mathematician, numismatist, author of papers chiefly on Roman antiquities, and astronomer. When only 23 years of age, he was chosen a fellow of the Royal Society, was appointed a vice-president of the society by then president Sir Isaac Newton, and eventually became president himself. He was also a prominent Freemason, being appointed Deputy Grand Master of the Premier Grand Lodge of England. He became a noted atheist, with evidence of a Darwinian viewpoint, though he abhorred racial prejudice, and supposedly set up an "Infidels Club". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Folkes
 

Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
Ralph Ellis I can take in considerable doses - perhaps a "Baux-pas" on my part, but Bushby the Queenslander is a definite no no!

Far more important than this however is a question I have to address to Richard, as the competent authority on Ralph Ellis here. As I have read only Jesus King of Edessa, I must ask Richard a detailed question about Ellis's works.

This is: in your reading of all his other books, Richard, does Ralph Ellis even mention or quote from Josephus's Life of Josephus, specifically section 11 and the later section relating to it, section 36? I mention this because it is vitally important to assessing Ellis's major claims about Monobasus-Izes being Jesus, and the relationship of the 'Adiabene' Palmyran 'Jews' to the Jewish revolt in Judaea.

Looking forward to your reply!

Yours faithfully
Claude
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
Ralph Ellis I can take in considerable doses - perhaps a "Baux-pas" on my part, but Bushby the Queenslander is a definite no no!
Clever pun, I liked that. I did try to make a connection from the Mary Magdalene of Provence family, proposed by Ellis, to a Baux/Vaux/Faux bloodline, which may very well be a "Faux News" smokescreen. As far as Bushby goes, I did give him a low rating on my listing, but personally, I don't care if he comes from Queensland, Kingston, Princeton, or the Moon, it is his information that I am interested in sorting out the wheat from the chaff from, and, very broadly speaking, of course, he (1) does give Jesus at least one brother, as Ellis, Piso, Pope, and even the Bible do, and (2) he does have "his" Jesus winding up in Britain, just as Ellis and Pope do. Thus, I keep him under consideration, but not as a major player, in my book. I only addressed the first sentence of your comment, as I agree with you, that it is far less important than your question to Richard, whom I also consider as a competent authority on Ralph Ellis, as I have not read all of his books either, and hope to learn more from him too.
 

Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
I'm glad you keep your distance from Bushby, Seeker...
As far as Bushby goes, I did give him a low rating on my listing, but personally, I don't care if he comes from Queensland, Kingston, Princeton, or the Moon, it is his information that I am interested in sorting out the wheat from the chaff from, and, very broadly speaking, of course, he (1) does give Jesus at least one brother, as Ellis, Piso, Pope, and even the Bible do, and (2) he does have "his" Jesus winding up in Britain, just as Ellis and Pope do.
...considering his high regard for unreliable authorities.

Like Bushby I am Australian, but I always tend to suspect authors who come from the Queensland's Gold or Sunshine Coasts. These areas have been favorite retirement areas for the elderly and thus became the bastion of real estate swindles and Evangelical nut-cases. Bushby is cashing in on the simple repugnance towards the latter. He even lives in the middle of the Sunshine Coast - Maroochydore &/or Mooloolabah - among the aspirational middle class whose aspirations are now becoming focused on rising sea levels and lowering resale values i.e. threatening to inundate their sea level 'canal-development' homes and boatsheds. Thus do they cling to Someone who can walk on water - or laugh at those who do!;)

Yours faithfully
Claude
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
This is: in your reading of all his other books, Richard, does Ralph Ellis even mention or quote from Josephus's Life of Josephus, specifically section 11 and the later section relating to it, section 36? I mention this because it is vitally important to assessing Ellis's major claims about Monobasus-Izes being Jesus, and the relationship of the 'Adiabene' Palmyran 'Jews' to the Jewish revolt in Judaea.

Looking forward to your reply!
I'll answer these on the From Cleopatra to Christ thread.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
I have transferred the following Baux information from the postings I had made on the "Religion: the Crossroads of Myth and History?" thread:

"The House of Baux, in Provence, claimed Balthazar, one of the Magi, as their founding ancestor, and used a star (from Bethlehem) of sixteen points on their coat of arms, seals, castle walls, etc. Some of them were Princes of Orange, which Ralph Ellis has apparently attached some importance to. Certain lines of their descendants appear to be very good at changing their surnames to something completely different, which has resulted in obvious confusion and skepticism from mainstream historians attempting to trace those branches, causing them to basically consider their alleged family connections a fairy tale.
From the excerpts I have read, it looks as though Ellis is tying in the Magdalene to the original Orange in Provence (Lower Burgundy), as an ancestress of the Merovingians and also William of Gellone after them, who was the original William of Orange. The earlier Baux family members are supposed to have helped him fight the Saracens, and one of them is believed to have married a daughter of his. William the Silent of Nassau (who married Baux descendants), inherited Orange from his childless cousin, a descendant of the last female Baux of that Orange line, and was the great-grandfather of the English King William of Orange. The Baux are some of the ancestors of, among other present royal families, the Houses of Monaco (the heir to that throne is "Marquis of Baux"), Belgium, Liechtenstein (that eventual heir is also the future Jacobite English pretender), Windsor, the Pretender King of France, the late Queen Juliana of the Netherlands, married to late Bilderberger founder Prince Bernhard, and both the Savoy heir of Italy and the rival Pretender. However, as I mentioned previously, the Baux themselves seem to disappear into the woodwork, perhaps intentionally, and what did the sixteen points around the Star of Bethlehem symbolize for them, it must have been meant something important, was it really the Star of Bethlehem guiding their supposed ancestor Balthazar to Jesus and eventually on to Provence, or something else?
Oh, I just found this, could it be the sixteen pointed "Vergina Sun", representing Helios? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun#Antiquity
OK, I don't have the book, but I have just been reading Google excerpts about Mary Magdalene and the House of Orange, and it looks like the investigations of Ellis unknowingly ties into this seemingly unknown Baux family, with religion, myth, and history. The supposed Baux ancestor who followed the Star of Bethlehem to Jesus, and then to Provence (where Ellis says the Magdalene and her entourage went), the "black" Magi/King Balthazar, must be actually pertaining to the presumed father of Jesus/Izates, KING MonoBAZUS (or Bazeus, a short form of Balthazar, like Baux?), also known as Simon the MAGUS, "BLACK" because his heritage is ultimately Egyptian? In other words, the Baux family descended from the family of Jesus/Izates who came to Provence, his wife Mary Magdalene and their offspring. This would explain why members of the Baux family are supposed to have fought with William of Gellone against the Saracens, and to have married his daughter, they were probably his cousins, and Ellis may be talking about their descendants, who became Princes of Orange for a time. That particular Baux succession became extinct in the male line, and the Nassau dynasty inherited Orange. However, there were other Baux families that survived, some took different surnames, and married into other prominent families, such as the influential Orsini family of Rome, which claimed to descend from the Julio-Claudian dynasty."

I now have the Ralph Ellis book, "Mary Magdalene Princess of Orange", and see that he does mention "Baux" once, in passing, in Fig. 4.10, where he is discussing the coat of arms of William I of Baux, which I had mentioned at Post #79 here on this thread, as shown below:

"- In 1193 appears the horn of Guillaume des Baux,
lord of Orange.
- Quarterly, at 1-4 Gules to the comet with sixteen silver lines, at 2-3, Gold with an azure hunting horn linked by Gules. PIT IV-45. "

729

Concerning the sixteen pointed Star of Balthazar on the shield shown above, which Ellis does not mention as the symbol of the Baux legendary ancestry, the Star of Bethlehem followed by the Baux forefather Magi/King Balthazar, Ellis does however mention in Fig. 4.10 "that this shield demonstrates that the symbolism of the orange fruit can be directly associated with the symbolism of the Sun", which I had independently associated with the sixteen pointed Vergina Sun, representing Helios, as mentioned above in my transferred information. Ellis also states, "Note that the numbering system for the princes of Orange has been reset back to number 1 on many occasions (he had named the owner of this coat of arms as "the late 12th century William I of Baux, the Prince of Orange"), AS DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF THIS FAMILY TAKE ON THE TITLE". Thus, indirectly and unintentionally, Ralph Ellis is confirming my hypothesis that the Baux family are direct descendants of Mary Magdalene of Provence, and the original House of Orange of Guillaume of Gellone.
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
In his "Mary Magdalene Princess of Orange" book, Ralph Ellis connects Mary Magdalene and the House of Orange to the Protestant Reformation movement against the Roman Catholic Church, and prominently mentions King Henry VIII as becoming the head of the Church of England, which split away from the Papal dominated Roman Catholic Church. What Ellis did not mention is that King Henry VIII was from the bloodline of the Prince of Orange Baux family, through his maternal grandmother, Elizabeth Woodville. Elizabeth's grandmother, Margaret of Baux, would thus be the great-great-grandmother of King Henry VIII, who established the breakaway Church of England with himself at the head, and his descendant Queen Elizabeth II rules as the head of this church to this very day. Of course, in the "big picture", the Church of England would be "controlled opposition" of the Roman Catholic Church, something else that Ralph Ellis does not get into in his book. As a matter of fact, from my reading of "Mary Magdalene Princess of Orange", I am very definitely getting the impression that Ralph Ellis is a confirmed Anglophile, which, considering his heritage, is of course understandable. However, the Baux family had a branch move to Italy and become "del Balzo", prominently associated with the Italian aristocracy and the Knights of Malta, with the apparent heir to the Dukedom of Presenzano having been involved with investment banking in Geneva, London, and New York City, so this family may be "real players" who know the score, descended from Mary Magdalene of Provence and the Princes of Orange, it is true, but also ultimately from Julius Caesar and "Rome".
 
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Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
O Seeker Master of Understatement...
Of course, in the "big picture", the Church of England would be "controlled opposition" of the Roman Catholic Church, something else that Ralph Ellis does not get into in his book. As a matter of fact, from my reading of "Mary Magdalene Princess of Orange", I am very definitely getting the impression that Ralph Ellis is a confirmed Anglophile, which, considering his heritage, is of course understandable. However, the Baux family had a branch move to Italy and become "del Balzo", prominently associated with the Italian aristocracy and the Knights of Malta, with the apparent heir to the Dukedom of Presenzano having been involved with investment banking in Geneva, London, and New York City, so this family may be "real players" who know the score, descended from Mary Magdalene of Provence and the Princes of Orange, it is true, but also ultimately from Julius Caesar and "Rome".
... the Church of England became a "controlled opposition" - as the Anglicans - only because, like Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and to some extent Lutherans, they gradually became Zombie Churches, run by another religion in control at the top, Freemasonry (and de facto other secret societies), which has its own Masonic nursing homes etc. indicating that it is the religion of the elites with the conservative Prots as mere "front men".

Hence the oppositional role to this situation by more perceptive RockChoppers* (Roman Catholics), such as EMJ (E Michael Jones) who realized that the teaming up of Freemasons and Jews under 'permissive' Protestant hegemony means the debasement of society generally as both these groups intend only to manipulate and control others in their own interests. Remember too that the RCs themselves were founded on handing over usury to the Jews then controlling them thru that new Flavian religious invention: Jesus Christ, murdered by the Jews in the Mark #1 version (Paul's I Thessalonians 2:14-15) and then by the Romans after lobbying by the Jews in the Mark #2 version (the canonical gospels, not just Mark), the latter four redacted into their present form when the Romans, under Governor Pliny the Younger, were threatened by rabble-rousing - i.e. popular - Christian opposition to Roman political power in Bithynia (>100AD).

Yours faithfully
Claude

*This slang term seems prominent mainly in Western Australia and does not seem to occur much in the Eastern states.
 
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Seeker

Well-Known Member
O Seeker Master of Understatement...
At Last, after years of procrastination, I finally obtained my "Master's", Thank You! I must ask you, however interesting your observations may be, that if I am to play "Faust" to your "Mephistopheles", if there a more relevant thread on this site where such topics may be broached? I am not "seeking" to derail my own Frankenstein monster created thread about the Baux/Vaux/Fauxe(Fawkes) family ( a personal pet project of mine), and thus force Jerry to "jerrymander" me to another thread anyway. In the immortal words of Colin Clive as Dr. Frankenstein (a "lifetime" over-the-top actor if there ever was one, and I feel the same way about my "creation" as he did about his), "It's Alive!!!", and "Now I know what it feels like to be God!". If that doesn't drive you away, all I can say is what Colin said near the beginning of that "immortal" scene, "Quite a good scene, isn't it? One man, crazy - three very sane spectators!" (Jerry, Richard, Claude). 'Nuff Said!
 

Richard Stanley

Well-Known Member
RockChoppers, another name for masons. Or, in other words, masons by another name.

Claude is bound and determined to proudly display his Caesaropapist Fascist feathers here. At least he doesn't believe in preaching to the choir.
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
RockChoppers
I had never noticed this word before, and the first thing that I thought of when I did see it was:
Matthew 16:18

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The Baux/Balzo family in Italy would certainly qualify as such, then.
 
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Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
Yes, Seeker, the "RockChopper" epithet works on many levels, not just the Roman Catholic initials.
I had never noticed this word before, and the first thing that I thought of when I did see it was:
Matthew 16:18

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The Baux/Balzo family in Italy would certainly qualify as such, then.
Rock chopping is what one is sentenced to as a Church slave, apart from its Masonic implications - stonework being a classic Italian occupation. Thus Catholic masons, literal and figurative, rock chop for the Church. But the believers also mock it, Chopping at the Rock for its arrogance and hypocrisy.

Western Australia is (or was nowadays) the mining state of Australia, as well as the most Roman Catholic state - hence it is the RockChopper state in both senses, this perhaps being why the term caught on here more than in the rest of the country.

I had not realized that 'Balzo' meant rock. But this makes sense considering the seaside rock outcrop called Balzi Rozzi (i.e. red rock) very near Monaco and the Italian/French border. It is famous for containing the oldest modern human remains in Europe, about 40,000 years ago, the two buried there showing distinctly African rather than European/Neanderthal features.

Yours faithfully
Claude
 

Seeker

Well-Known Member
I had not realized that 'Balzo' meant rock.
Good detective work, as the Balzo do descend from the Baux, with other levels of meaning for this name also, besides referring to their legendary ancestor, the Magi/King Balthazar:
"The House of Baux is a French noble family from the south of France. It was one of the richest and most powerful families of Medieval Provence, known as the 'Race d’Aiglon'. They were independent Lords as castellan of Les Baux and Arles and wielded very considerable authority at local level. They held important fiefs and vast lands, including the principality of Orange.[1]
In Provençal, the word “Baux” ("li Baou" in provencal) means escarpment/cliff, and refers to the natural fortress on which the family built their castle, the Château des Baux and the village that surrounded it. The word is also seen in Bau-maniere, Bau-baisse, Bau-mirane, Bau-Cous-temple. In provencal to be from les Baux, des Baux, was "de Baucio". The natural defense provided by the escarpment, the raised and protected mountain valley that allowed them to have a protected food supply, and the natural ridge of the Alpilles that allowed them to control all the approaches to the citadel of Les Baux and the surrounding countryside, including the passage up and down the Rhone, and the approaches from the Mediterranean, made that the fortress impervious to the military technology of the time.

Les Baux-de-Provence seen from the side, showing the natural fortress created by the escarpment. Without gunpowder, it was impregnable.
The family of des Baux exists today in Naples in the person of several noble families ("del Balzo") descended from younger sons who followed Charles of Anjou south."

Concerning Monaco:
"Marquis of Baux (French: Marquis des Baux) is a subsidiary title of the Prince of Monaco. When possible, the title passes from the reigning Prince to the first male heir apparent or heir presumptive of the Monegasque throne.
The present bearer of the title is Jacques, Hereditary Prince of Monaco. The marquisate was originally associated with the town of Les Baux de Provence, but later lost its administrative authority when control of the town reverted to France.
The title of "Lord of Baux" had been used by other families previously. King Louis XIII of France re-granted the lordship as a marquisate to Honoré II, Prince of Monaco, by the Treaty of Péronne on 14 September 1641. The new title was first used by Honoré's only son, Ercole, Marquis of Baux. Ercole died before his father, and thus the title has been granted for several centuries to the heirs of the Prince of Monaco."

About the human remains:
"Grimaldi man is the name formerly given to two human skeletons of the Upper Paleolithic discovered in Italy in 1901. The remains are now recognized as representing two individuals, and are dated to ca. 26,000 to 22,000 years ago and classified as part of the wider European early modern humans population of the late Aurignacian to early Gravettian.
Because of their early discovery, there is a long history of interpretation of the fossils. Notably, the remains were originally classified as Negroid by Boule and Vallois (1921). This identification has been obsolete since at least the 1960s, but it was controversially revived in the 1980s as part of the Afrocentrism propagated by Cheikh Anta Diop. Around the turn of the 20th century, Albert I, Prince of Monaco financed the archaeological exploration of the seven most important caves. These were named "Caves of Grimaldi" in honour of the House of Grimaldi."
 

Claude Badley

Registered Guest
Fascist
My only quibble with your excellent post is minor - but thank you for reminding me of the fossils' old name - Grimaldi Man
About the human remains:
"Grimaldi man is the name formerly given to two human skeletons of the Upper Paleolithic discovered in Italy in 1901. The remains are now recognized as representing two individuals, and are dated to ca. 26,000 to 22,000 years ago and classified as part of the wider European early modern humans population of the late Aurignacian to early Gravettian.
Because of their early discovery, there is a long history of interpretation of the fossils. Notably, the remains were originally classified as Negroid by Boule and Vallois (1921). This identification has been obsolete since at least the 1960s, but it was controversially revived in the 1980s as part of the Afrocentrism propagated by Cheikh Anta Diop. Around the turn of the 20th century, Albert I, Prince of Monaco financed the archaeological exploration of the seven most important caves. These were named "Caves of Grimaldi" in honour of the House of Grimaldi."
Further down the Wikipedia article reveals that the two Grimaldi individuals are older than the Cro-Magnon remains.
[/quote]An inference of the true age can be made from the layering. The more tropical fauna of the lower levels below the Grimaldi man skeletons had rhinoceros, hippopotamus and elephants, are known from the Mousterian Pluvial, a moist period from 50,000 to 30,000 years before present.[10] The Aurignacian is 47,000 to 41,000 years old using the most recent calibration of the radiocarbon timescale.[11] With the Grimaldi skeletons situated at the lowest Aurignacian layer, the true age is likely in the earlier range. [/quote]The Grimaldi skeletons, associated with Aurignacian material (Early Upper Paleolithic) were buried in a layer of Mousterian material. The term 'Mousterian' refers to the assemblage of stone tools characteristic of Neanderthals and showing that the successor group arose from Africa. While the term 'Negroid' may be obsolete the African appearance of the two Grimaldi fossils remains clear!

Hence I maintain the age of the Grimaldi two as 40,000 years - though if one combines the dates with the later Cro-Magnons the average would indeed by 26-22,000 years ago. However the combination of dates is illegitimate given the clear stratification in the caves themselves. So Diop happens to be right there - even though Diop also peddled the Einsteinian BS to the Wolof people of his native Senegal.:eek:

Yours faithfully
Claude

PS: Come to think of it, even my own pseudonym "Claude Badley" comes from the Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoon series - so I wonder how that was translated into French and Italian? Balzo et Taurowinklo????
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
At least you were not declared a "nonperson" yet...
I don't want to make any promises, but I don't recall ever banning any serious (non-spam) poster. We had to put Loren Hough on timeout once. Posters with an incompatible agenda generally get bored of us eventually.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I don't want to make any promises, but I don't recall ever banning any serious (non-spam) poster. We had to put Loren Hough on timeout once. Posters with an incompatible agenda generally get bored of us eventually.
Although I do need to draw the line at repeated personal insults, racist dog whistles, and threats of violence. I prefer to edit or delete the offending posts, rather than banning the posters.
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
I saw a couple of genealogy stories that I'm going to post here, although (seemingly) not directly related to the genealogies that have been discussed so far in this thread.

#1. Donald Trump, who frequently praises his own great genes and fantastic bloodlines, also told Bill Ford that he and his great-grandfather had "good bloodlines, good bloodlines -- if you believe in that stuff, you got good blood." Is it true? Where do the Ford bloodlines lead?

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/22/trump-hails-good-bloodlines-henry-ford-whose-anti-semitism-inspired-hitler

Trump has made no secret of his own belief that he inherited everything from intelligence to an ability to withstand pressure through the “great genes” passed on to him by his parents and grandparents. He has also frequently compared the importance of “good bloodlines” in humans to the breeding of champion racehorses, a view that overlaps in uncomfortable ways with those of eugenicists and racists like Ford.
“I’m proud to have that German blood,” Trump once told an interviewer. “You’ve all got such good bloodlines,” Trump reportedly told British business leaders at a dinner in 2018. “You’ve all got such amazing DNA.”
Trump has also frequently suggested that because his uncle, John Trump, taught for decades at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he is similarly smart. “My uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT,” Trump said at a South Carolina rally in 2015. Pointing at his right temple, he then added: “Good genes, very good genes — okay? — very smart.”
#2. Corbett Report looked into Bill Gates's family history, providing the following information:

https://www.corbettreport.com/meetgates/

Bill Gates, it should not be surprising to learn, was born into money. His great-grandfather, J. W. Maxwell, was the president of National City Bank in Seattle. His grandfather, Willard, was also a banker, and his grandmother, Adele, a prominent Seattle civic leader.
Bill Gates’ mother, Mary Maxwell Gates, was a scion of the Maxwell banking family and, by all accounts, as hard-driving as her forebears. She served as a director of several companies, including First Interstate Bancorp and KIRO-TV of Seattle. She served as a regent at the University of Washington. And she was appointed to the board of the United Way of America, where, as we have seen, she persuaded IBM CEO John Opel to help her son in his fledgling software development career.
Bill’s father, William H. Gates, Sr., was a prominent Seattle-area lawyer. He co-founded a powerful law and lobbying firm, helped Howard Schultz in his bid to buy Starbucks, served on the boards of numerous companies and organizations, and, along the way, had a profound influence on his son’s life and career.
Corbett also found a link to the Rockefellers, although not necessarily genealogical:

Bill Gates, Sr. got to discuss global health, agriculture and environment with the likes of David Rockefeller, Sr., and David Rockefeller, Jr., at a meeting on “Philanthropy in a Global Century” at Rockefeller University campus in 2000. And Bill Gates, as we have seen, co-hosted a meeting on reducing the population with David Rockefeller in 2009.

I wonder if this could be traced further?

 
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