Alternative Genealogy

Seeker

Active Member
Speaking of a possible descent or a cult from Jesus/Izas/Manu VI, if he truly spent the remaining years of his life at Deva Victrix in Chester, garrisoned at one time by the Legio XX Valeria Victrix, whose badge was the boar, 63 driving miles east to Monyash, Derbyshire, has been found the Benty Grange helmet from the 7th century, with a boar crest facing a Christian cross, symbolic of the Legio XX guarding "Jesus"?
 

Seeker

Active Member
Also interesting is the fact that the last ruling Plantagenet King of England, Richard III, used the boar as his emblem, and his Plantagenet ancestry is now in dispute since his remains were DNA tested a few years ago.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Getting back to the descent of Jesus from Julius Caesar, does Ellis explain, if Julius Caesar did have a posthumous daughter by Cleopatra, who would have been born by the end of 44 BC, and Cleopatra kept her until Octavian defeated her and took this daughter away to Rome in 30 BC, why there is no mention of her among the other children of Cleopatra during that time frame? Why was this daughter not prominently displayed and awarded kingdoms during the Donations of Alexandria, as Cleopatra's other children by both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony were?
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
I don't remember exactly how Ellis worded it, but the general idea is that Thea Muse Ourania was kept a state secret, at least to the Roman public. Of course, they would have to have had some way to demonstrate to the Parthians that she had premier bloodlines.
 

Seeker

Active Member
My impression from rereading the relevant part of "Cleopatra to Christ" is that Ellis believed that a daughter by the now assassinated Caesar was not important to Cleopatra, she had hoped for another son by him to inherit her dream of the Roman Empire. Apparently the twins Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene by the still living Mark Antony were much more relevant to her plans by the time of the Donations of Alexandria. As far as identifying her as someone who had inherited premier bloodlines, it was said that Caesarion looked very much like his presumed father Julius Caesar, perhaps Thea Muse Ourania had a striking resemblance to her mother Cleopatra.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
Sans the discovery of some documentary or other evidence, all we can do is conjecture about motives and what actually happened. And be happy with the breadcrumbs that Josephus and others left for us, in allowing us to surmise that this lineage actually did exist, ironically because of Josephus's obfuscations and thus the contradictions created.
 

Seeker

Active Member
in allowing us to surmise that this lineage actually did exist
So you do believe that this bloodline from Julius Caesar to "Jesus" actually existed, along with the evolution of the worship of Caesar in the Roman Empire to the worship of Jesus in the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
It seems like a lot of trouble for such as Josephus to have undertaken for no other good reason that I can see. This dynasty in Edessa was historical, there seems to have been a palace (and pyramidal capped tomb) of theirs in Jerusalem, being excavated just south of the Temple Mount.

And, one would need to utilize a faction with such bon fides so as to make a claim that would justify a revolt, originally a claim to the empire that was propagandically recrafted into something much tamer - and shifted back in time.
 

Seeker

Active Member
It seems that "the sixties" was a tumultuous time in Palestine as well as in America! The Zealots were against the Roman Establishment back then, and the hippies against the American Establishment. Remember John Lennon being quoted out of context as saying that the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus"? Yet, in 1970 the Beatles broke up, just as in AD 70 Jerusalem fell, and John Lennon was exiled from England (by choice?), persecuted by the American Establishment, and later assassinated in the "capitol" city of New York, "crucified" by bullets instead of nails. Did he also predict his fate (as Jesus did) in "The Ballad of John and Yoko", with the lyrics "The way things are going, they're gonna crucify me"? His murder also came after a recent interview in which he complimented the Establishment for the spread of LSD. Perhaps he was trying to be the "Josephus" of his generation also, but was considered as a loose cannon instead. Well, after all, to put this into a genealogical perspective, his mother was a Stanley.
 

Seeker

Active Member
I just thought of something, perhaps silly, but carrying my previous analogy to the present day, 2019 would correspond to 119 in the Roman world, with Hadrian as Roman Emperor, and wasn't he famous for building a "Wall"?
 

Seeker

Active Member
Just my flight of fancy, when I started thinking of "the sixties" in Palestine compared to our American "sixties", unless one wants to think that the Roman Empire was beginning by 1 AD, and that the "American Empire" was beginning by 1900, after the Spanish-American War.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Did Ellis mention anything at all about Simon of Cyrene is his books, whether he thought that he was actually substituted for Jesus on the cross. or really was somebody else, like a "twin" of Jesus. Also, did Ellis mention Barabbas, the man who should have been crucified instead of Jesus, only in this case, Jesus is the "twin" who does the "substituting" for him on the cross. It just occurred to me that something ambiguous is happening here regarding the official "death" of Jesus with the twin motif. Of course then we have the two "twin" condemned men on the cross with Jesus, one is chosen to "live" eternally and another "dies", what is going on here, are these all different representations of Castor and Pollux that should be taken symbolically instead of literally?
 

Richard Stanley

Administrator
No, he does not discuss Simon of Cyrene.

On pages 257-260 of King Jesus he does discuss Barabbas:

6Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired. 7And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection. (Mark 15 KJV)​

He discusses that gJohn refers to him as a lestes which is usually translated as a 'robber', but Josephus uses this same term to discuss the Zealots (remembering here Simon Zelotes).

Ellis then quotes Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:

Barabbas - This person had, a short time before, raised an insurrection in Jerusalem, in which it appears that some lives were lost. In some manuscripts and in the Armenian and Syriac Hieros, this man has the surname of Jesus. Professor Birch has discovered this same reading in a Vatican manuscript written in 949, and numbered 354.

After some more editorializing, Ellis quotes the Jewish Encyclopedia:

He was an insurrectionary leader who lied in first century Palestine. According to Talmudic accounts, he took a very prominent part in the uprising against Rome in AD 70, being then at the head of the Zealots at Jerusalem.
...
He was Abba Sikkra the nephew of Johanan ben Zakkai .... After the Zealots had destroyed all storehouses, thus causing a famine in the besieged city, Johanan ben Zakkai invited Abba to an interview and asked him: 'Why do you act in such a manner? Will you kill us by famine?' Abba replied: 'What shall I do? If I tell them anything of the king, they will slay me.'

Of course, elsewhere Ellis has developed that Johanan ben Zakkai is Josephus. Ellis states that Sikkra (Barabbas) is also known as a leader of the Biryoni, which apparently means 'palace', which to me is quite appropriate if they are indeed Hasmoneans. And, all further indicative of that this elite family was playing both sides of the fence, as I have discussed several times elsewhere.
 

Seeker

Active Member
Simon of Cyrene may have a bloodline just as "Jesus" does, as Mark 15:21 has him as the father of Alexander and Rufus, are we disguising more people here? In Alexandria the wealthy Jewish Alexander the Alabarch, friend of the Imperial Roman household, was the father of Flavian supporter Tiberius Julius Alexander and a younger son Alexander. Rufus means "red", as in red-haired elites?
There has also been speculation that Barabbas (meaning "Son of the Father") Jesus was the actual son of Jesus, who as Izates certainly had sons taken to Rome after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.
 

Seeker

Active Member
In addition, if Josephus is truly "Joseph of Arimathea", then he eventually wound up in England as "Jesus" did, and his bloodline is supposed to lead to "King Arthur", and some of the Knights of the Round Table also, implying kinship between these two.
 
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