911 Pentagon

This live FOX5 newscast probably pinpoints the moment when the building collapsed.

This man was working inside a delivery building when they heard an explosion, and evacuated.
He was interviewed here on Route 27, north of the Pentagon.

At the end, they turn towards the Pentagon, wondering about a loud noise they heard, at 10:14 or 10:15 a.m.
The smoke plume seems to become disorganised.
This is likely the moment when the building collapsed occurred.

So this would be 37 or 38 minutes after the explosion.

 
At 01:00 the witness starts talking about the plane.
He was speaking with a gentleman who told him that a large commercial airliner flew low over his car, and blew out the windows.

This witness points south, and says the man was driving on I-395. This is one of many instances where locals mis-identified the roads around the Pentagon.
Since Lloyde England was the only person who had his windshield blown out when a large plane flew low over his car, we are safe in deducing that he had been speaking with Lloyde England.

But was this Marc Vandeveer? I cannot say without, as you wisely suggest, making a phone call.

However, from this facial comparison, there is a strong similarity.

I think it is highly likely that we have found Marc Vandeveer in the video record of that morning.

Screenshot_20231130-142229_Photos~2.jpg
 
Lloyde walking south away from the bridge, with his jacket slung over his shoulder, as in that photo.

The photo shows the taxi cab after it was moved and staged with the long light pole, is that right? What do you think is the timing of this photo? You are saying that at 9:55 a.m. Lloyd was elsewhere, near the initial position of the taxi before it was moved? Have we constructed a timeline somewhere, showing the sequence of events?
from this facial comparison, there is a strong similarity.

With about 20 years of time between these images, all I can say is that it seems possible they're the same person.

At about 0:26 in the video, the witness says he heard an explosion but waited inside for about 10 minutes, when he was told to evacuate. Then at 1:49 he says he had to jump over a fence to get out. Then at 1:58 he says he heard someone calling for help, after he jumped the fence.

I suppose it makes sense that the person calling for help, was the same person who had his windows blown out, and also the same one that described the plane to him. But it's hard to be sure that all three are the same.

Does it seem right that Lloyde would still be near his taxicab, calling for help, at the ten minute mark after initial impact? (Assuming that the initial explosion was the same as the impact.)
 
At 01:00 the witness starts talking about the plane.
He was speaking with a gentleman who told him that a large commercial airliner flew low over his car, and blew out the windows.

This witness points south, and says the man was driving on I-395. This is one of many instances where locals mis-identified the roads around the Pentagon.
Since Lloyde England was the only person who had his windshield blown out when a large plane flew low over his car, we are safe in deducing that he had been speaking with Lloyde England.

But was this Marc Vandeveer? I cannot say without, as you wisely suggest, making a phone call.

However, from this facial comparison, there is a strong similarity.

I think it is highly likely that we have found Marc Vandeveer in the video record of that morning.

View attachment 1120
Excellent find, Ruby! I notice the man's teeth, nose, eyebrows-to-eyes are very similar. I can't confirm about the ears because it's too blurry.
 
I was skimming Steve Warran's blog post on Lloyde here: https://stevenwarran.blogspot.com/2006/07/lloyd-lloyde-england-at-pentagon-on.html

and I noticed you responded to an anonymous comment posted in 2009, who had very accurate information on eyewitnesses! (My commentary in brackets).


Anonymous Monday, March 02, 2009 5:19:00 AM

Steve...Well done for the hard efforts.
Mr England was not on the overpass. (correct)
He insists he was not on the overpass to the CIT. He is correct and the CIT were understandably baffled. He said he was on solid ground. He is correct.
He was feet from the Priest in the North lanes. (correct) Neither Mr England or Father McGraw will give you their precision location in the North lanes on 911. They cannot do that and remain safe from harm.
The Priest is not a liar, and suffered when asked about the poles. He will always reply with POLE and so will Mr England. (correct)
A real pole was downed by a real jet. It has nothing to do with the scam at the overpass on R27.
Riskus knows all about that jet, the pole and could tell you that neither he or Mr England were travelling south on 27. The VDOT could tell you why that was, but they wont. (This anon commenter connects the VDOT to the operation. Riskus stated he was travelling south, but that he was pretty much the only traffic in that direction, which isn't true. Though traffic was /very/ sparse on Route 27 south-bound).
Find the position of the Priest to within 100 feet and I garauntee that you will be a very busy man for the next few months.
Take great care to watch your back and keep up the excellent work.
PS. Look very carefully at the man on the overpass next to the CAB and appearing to be making a call. (correct)
Mr England told the truth for once.

Who was this commenter? another eagle-eyed researcher, or an insider? hmm...

Here's my question: How did this person figure out that the Route 27 traffic was connected to the VDOT operation (felling of light poles/road closures), figure out that McGraw & Lloyde's testimony was true, knew that Riskus "knew all about" the jet, pole and therefore Lloyde's cab, all the way back in 2009, before Ruby's Herculean analysis of overlooked photo evidence? I suspect the commenter might have confused south Route 27 with north and then his statement would make more sense.

But these details would only be unearthed again during Ruby's investigation. I think this person honestly might be some sort of insider. I have no evidence, but like...how did he do it? Are his observation skills as fine-honed as Ruby's? Anything's possible.
 
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The photo shows the taxi cab after it was moved and staged with the long light pole, is that right? What do you think is the timing of this photo? You are saying that at 9:55 a.m. Lloyd was elsewhere, near the initial position of the taxi before it was moved? Have we constructed a timeline somewhere, showing the sequence of events?
The first photo to show Lloyde's taxi on the bridge in Cpl Jason ingersoll's series is time-stamped 9:48.
At least, it is adjusted to that time. The entire collection of high resolution images was given to Craig Ranke by VDOT Operations Manager Christopher Landis, in 2006.
All images were sequentially numbered and time-stamped.
When he heard the explosion, Ingersoll collected his camera gear and exited the Navy Annex. Presumably he had obtained authorisation from a superior to go and document everything of whatever had happened.
His first two photos were taken just outside the annex, looking at the smoke plume.
Here is the first one, which originally was time-stamped "10:45 pm" on 9/11/01.
Craig Ranke explains that even though the camera seems to have been set to a different time zone, the date is right and minutes are most probably correct, and that even if not precisely accurate, they do at least give us the time elapsed between events.

Screenshot_20231202-083049_Chrome~2.jpg

So, here is the first photo showing the taxi in place on the bridge, at 9:48 a.m.
This area is obscured by trees in all previous photos.
Several of these long-distance photos show people talking together north of the bridge.
On the high resolution version of the images, one of these people appears to be Lloyde, facing north.

Screenshot_20231202-084026_Chrome~3.jpg
 
Excellent find, Ruby! I notice the man's teeth, nose, eyebrows-to-eyes are very similar. I can't confirm about the ears because it's too blurry.
I think so! And having studied the video, I'm sure the ears match as well. I was taught in high school biology that ear shape is a major point of facial ID. An ear print is as distinctive as a fingerprint.
He has the same hair pattern too.

When I found that he was a Colonel and worked at Andrews Air Force Base, I thought a local friend of mine might know him. I see him a couple of times a week. He is retired from the Royal Australian Air Force, and spent some years at Andrews AFB. But alas he didn't recognize him.

I note you've been delving into the archives again. That Norma Hostetler is a hard case. Apparently solving 9/11 rests on the shape of Lloyde's nose. Thankfully I never heard from her again after that thread 2 years ago.

But a guy has turned up to pester me with very similar arguments on Craig McKee's No 757 Hit The Pentagon. Harry Bornemann. It's good that he is interested I guess. Most people couldn't care less. He has registered here I think.
 
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I'm sorry Harry's giving you a difficult time, Ruby. Yes, I've been archiving your prolific conversations on Facebook, AboveTopSecret, etc. I even archived some comments you posted on Mark Olafahnbra's video refuting Chandler's "refutation" of CIT, because you raise very important points about LaGasse's testimony and his movements around the Pentagon crime scene that day. Points which all demolish Chandler's imagined "starboard = left" scenario or whatever he came up with.

Norma's delusions about a Lloyde doppelganger down on the bridge were pretty funny. It's clearly the same person. And as you noted, Lloyde's nose appears to change shape several times in the CIT video, but it's just angles/light reflection/focal length of the camera lending to that illusion.
 
So the initial explosion ("impact"? Or actually overflight & bomb at fake entry point?) was at about 9:38, and Lloyde and the taxi had been moved to the bridge (fake south flight path) by 9:48? Vandeveer said he stayed inslde the building until 10 minutes after the initial explosion. So he would have encountered Lloyde on the bridge?

So it seems this isn't much help in disproving the Official Story. If indeed the taxi had been moved from where it was when its accident occurred, Vandeveer would have known nothing about it. Too bad.

I don't think I should confirm or deny Harry's registration status here. But if there's a need to know, I can check using my admin powers and let you know by PM.

[Edit: fixed times]
 
I don't think I should confirm or deny Harry's registration status here. But if there's a need to know, I can check using my admin powers and let you know by PM.

[Edit: fixed times]
I did invite Harry to join, as he will hopefully read back through the thread and get more of a sense of the evidence available without me having to repeat everything all over again. I note through the Members function that he has joined.
 
So the initial explosion ("impact"? Or actually overflight & bomb at fake entry point?) was at about 9:38, and Lloyde and the taxi had been moved to the bridge (fake south flight path) by 9:48? Vandeveer said he stayed inslde the building until 10 minutes after the initial explosion. So he would have encountered Lloyde on the bridge?

So it seems this isn't much help in disproving the Official Story. If indeed the taxi had been moved from where it was when its accident occurred, Vandeveer would have known nothing about it. Too bad.
I doubt anyone was looking at their watch that morning. People seem to have a distorted sense of time and distance during an emergency. So it probably wasn't as long as 10 minutes before they were evacuated.

Vandeveer seemed to indicate that his way home to his family was north, whereas Lloyde's home was south.

Vandeveer initially went south to see the damage, and to answer the call for help. We can see from the amateur video, and from other testimony, that the first responders on site were calling for help, although they did also reject offers from bystanders (such as Stephen McHale) who were not qualified to deal with fire and medical trauma.
In fact, Rumsfeld was one of those calling for helpers to carry a stretcher, very early on.

Lloyde stated that he was trying to flag down motorists to help remove the pole.
Jerri Davis did a U-turn and drove past that location, and saw a man waving to her to stop.
Again, she seems to have over-estimated the time elapsed between the explosion and her departure, because it sounds as though the man she avoided stopping for, was Lloyde.

Anyway, there's no indication that Lloyde was yelling for help.

It's a tragedy that the amateur video has no audio! I wonder whether that was deleted by the FBI for some reason? Did video cameras at that time have an option not to record sound?

Lloyde stated in an early account that as he was pulling the pole out, there was an explosion at the Pentagon, that he turned around, and then overbalanced and fell onto his back, still holding the pole up.

The 7 seconds of video showing Lloyde and the taxi ends when the camera is suddenly turned towards the fire, as though attention was drawn to a loud noise. So I suspect that this was the moment of the secondary explosion.

Daryl Donley was further south along the highway, taking photos. He caught the spectacular secondary explosion in a famous photo. This is a third confirmation of this event. Unless there was a third such explosion.

Screenshot_20231203-110652_Photos~2.jpg

This was Donley's 14th photo.

He calculated the time of his 10th photo according to the Arlington County After-action Report. This showed that Fire Truck 105 arrived at 9:41 a.m.
But was this the time it arrived on the lawn?

Screenshot_20231203-110315_Photos~2.jpg


Anyway, Donley had taken 10 photos by 9:41, after about a minute to gather his thoughts and find his camera. About 3 or 4 photos per minute.

So photo #14 was taken after 9:41, presumably by 9:42, which corresponds to the time I have estimated for the amateur video showing Lloyde and the taxi.
 
David Chandler and Wayne Coste point out that the fireball photographed by Donley was caught on 2 TV news cameras, both time stamped.

If the fireball was the same event as the explosion heard by Lloyde, we have another way of calculating the time that Lloyde removed the pole.
Very shortly after that time, he was run off from his cab, and it was then loaded up and relocated.

This video contains that discussion.


According to both NBC and CBS, the fireball occurred at 9:42:40 a.m.

Screenshot_20231204-032428_YouTube~2.jpg

Another timestamped TV news report shows the moment that the towtruck and covered trailer or left the cemetery wall.
That time was 9:43:12 a.m.
This is just 32 seconds after the fireball, which is too short a time for Lloyde to have got up off the ground, have been pushed down and sent packing by the top, and for the taxi to be loaded onto the trailer.
So I conclude that the explosion heard by Lloyde preceded the fireball, by an undetermined time.
 
Jerry's sensible question was, "Do we have a timeline?"
My unsatisfactory answer is, "Yes, in my head".
Well, on my computer, which, like me, has languished sans electrickery for 3 years now.
I can see all the scenes from different sources playing out in their sequence, which is not much help nor very convincing to anyone else.
This is a project which I had hoped to translate to video with help from Mark, who never found the time unfortunately.

Here is the clip from FOX5NEWS showing a very long-distance view of the towtruck and trailer departing the cemetery wall. It is first seen between the two trees against the white concrete wall.
On my computer I was able to enlarge this area so that the silhouettes of black truck and the trailer, loading ramps vertical and shrouded in black, could be distinguished. But alas, those images are not available on this tablet.
Maybe you can enhance the images yourselves.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxvGtx1H8mbPZVCBhjlJk5bB1OHGPPP9QN?si=lntd4oGMZVllYn8X
 
The FOX5NEWS timestamped footage is the Rosetta Stone for timing events in the other videos.

Cross-referencing a particularly distinctive smoke plume in it with the identical profile in the Residence Inn CCTV, taken from a very similar perspective, enables us to time-stamp that video as well, which is helpful as it is much longer, and shows events that occurred several minutes both before and after 9:43 a.m.

Thus we have :

Screenshot_20231203-130727_Photos~2.jpg

Then we are able to timestamp the appearance and departure of the White Van, whose driver Lloyde flagged down to help him remove the pole.
Lloyde said that the van arrived very soon after the explosion, and then the driver left while Lloyde was still lying on his back after having fallen while holding the pole.
Using the above formula, we find that the van appeared from north of the Columbia Pike exit sign at 9:41:10 a.m.

Screenshot_20231203-130500_Photos~3.jpg

The van parked in front of Lloyde's taxi very briefly as he stated, and we see it departing again at 9:42:35 a.m.
This van was the only vehicle on the southbound lanes.

Screenshot_20231114-034904_Photos~3.jpg
 
The amateur video captured the van as it travelled up tiwards the bridge.
Crossreferencing this with the Residence Inn footage, we can then time-stamp part of the amateur video.

These still images are not individually convincing, but watching the video footage, especially when enlarged and enhanced, reveals the details.

Screenshot_20231130-110850_YouTube~4.jpg

Jason Ingersoll then captured several photos of this white van parked on the bridge.
The first one to show it was at 9:47 a.m.

By 9:48, the white van was departing south again.
A stream of vehicles was permitted to file past the tableau of taxi and lightpole for just a few minutes, presumably to ensure eyewitnesses to the scene.

Screenshot_20231204-044711_Chrome~2.jpg
 
The FOX5NEWS footage shows the towtruck departing the cemetery site at 9:43:12.

The amateur video shot from the bridge then picks up the towtruck and trailer, head on, as it travels south.

The distance from cemetery wall to bridge is 350 yards.
This short journey would take only about 20 seconds.
Therefore this screen shot of the taxi in transit would be between about 9:43:20 and 9:43:40 a.m.

That allows us to time-stamp this footage, to for instance, tell us what time the C-130 arrived at the Pentagon. (It was 60 seconds after the explosion according to the radar, but about 3 1/2 minutes according to the real-time conversation between Camera Guy and his son on this video.)

As the tow truck travelled south, Lloyde was in the HOV lanes, walking north in this video.
Somehow he had left the cemetery wall before 9:43, and was about 250 yards south of there, but walking north again.

Screenshot_20231125-115102_Chrome~4.jpg
 
Excellent work. I'll need some time to read this over, as I can't visually imagine the sequence as well as you can, but the images help a lot.

On a sort of related note, I was wondering why the plane needed to over-fly the Pentagon and I think I found a decent answer: You can't actually fly a plane into the Pentagon.

In the first place, the West-to-East corridor from Dulles International to Reagan International Airport is cluttered with westbound rush hour traffic, mostly inbounds (flying at roughly the same low altitudes). who'd pose a threat to any wayward airliner not communicating with ATC or monitoring TCAS. This means travel from East to West along the official flight path is impossible – the only way into D.C./Arlington airspace in these conditions is thru restricted White House airspace P-56 (as proven by JWD).

But more importantly, all of the issues raised by Pilots for 9/11 Truth and other skeptics – such as the "ground effect" from (attempting) to fly a jetliner so close to the ground – would make a level dead-on approach, as alleged, nearly impossible. Truly, the only way to "attack" the Pentagon with a plane was to simulate it and over-fly the building.

I also think in the interest of limiting (un-necessary) casualties, the conspirators would avoid trying to crash onto the roof – imagine if you'd accidentally 'bombed' Rumsfeld's office!
 
This is a timeline I drew years ago, listing major details as seen on the amateur video taken from north of the heliport.

I need to do the same for the video taken from the bridge, the Residence Inn CCTV, various photos, etc.

Screenshot_20231204-093406_Chrome~2.jpg
 
Note that Father McGraw is mentioned as being at the Triage site at 9:52 a.m.
This is when Mark Faram was taking photos. But due to intermittent discontinuity in filming, it would have been slightly later than this.

Also, this does not account for that single frame of him standing on the lawn at 9:41 a.m.

Screenshot_20231204-094147_Photos~2.jpg
 
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