911 Pentagon

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
But have you tried to logically figure out how, on the southbound lanes where there was no traffic, the black car which departed the bridge (It is way underneath the I-395 after 03:00), could have been Lloyde's cab?
On the contrary, I don't see how it could possibly have been Lloyde's cab.

The two scenarios we're comparing are:

(1) Lloyde's cab was hit by a pole and came to a stop on top of the bridge at about 9:37 am, where it remained at least until 9:57 am. Meanwhile, another black car was stopped near the cemetery at 9:37 am, and was captured leaving the scene in the Eugenio Hernandez video at 9:43 am.

(2) Lloyde's cab was hit by a short pole and came to a stop near the cemetery at 9:37 am. Meanwhile, another black car was also hit by a longer pole on top of the bridge. The pole on this 2nd car was removed and set aside on the street, and that black car was captured leaving the scene in the Eugenio Hernandez video at 9:43 am. Lloyde's cab was then loaded onto the yellow-orange trailer and tow truck, and moved into position on top of the bridge by 9:56 am.

Could we review the evidence that Lloyde's cab was near the cemetery between 9:37 and 9:43 am? We have some eyewitnesses, and some very low resolution video, is that right?

Just wondering what is happening here with the segmented box I am typing in.
Which button did I inadvertently press to get this effect?
You used the "insert table" button, maybe twice.

Cool looking, eh?

Or if you don't like it, use the little "gear" icon to switch to bbedit mode, and you can delete the table commands.

Here is the Jason Ingersoll image of Lloyde's taxi on top of the bridge, with half of the yellow-orange trailer visible way up on the left side of the photo, at the top of the cloverleaf.
Found it at thepentacon.com/Topic7.htm

DSC_0420

 

Ruby Gray

Member
As regards scenario 2 above, no, I am not suggesting that the other black car on top of the bridge (decoy cab) was "hit" by a lightpole.

I see the scratch in the road surface ending at the corner of the pole base (Ingersoll photo above) as an indication that this pole had been previously laid beside the concrete barrier, then dragged across the road by the 2 occupants in that car after it made a speccy skid stop, and its lighter top end quickly laid (harmlessly) across the top of the car during the shock-horror moments after the explosion.

That is how Yvette Buzard described it, as laying on top of a cab, not inside the windshield.

She plays fast and loose with the highway designations, as so many Arlingtonians do.

From the verbal descriptions and chronology of what she saw,
and the fact that the fireball was facing Route 27, not I-395 as she wrote,
plus the fact that there was no southbound traffic at the time,
and no concrete trucks at all on photos or videos,
but there was a big white septic pumping truck going northbound (Ingersoll photo),
and that she saw a pole ON TOP of a cab, not IN it -
- I can only deduce that she was going north up Route 27 from I-395, towards the bridge, when she saw the fireball.

However she did not see a plane at all, which is another strike against the plane flying across the bridge.

pp. 10, 11 THEN CAME THE FIRE
Yvette Buzard, an Acuent contractor in the Office of the Director of Information Systems for Command, Control, Communications, and Computers. She submitted the following account of her experiences to the U.S. Army Center of Military History on 8 April 2002.

On September 11th, at 9:38 I was going up the ramp onto [Route] 27 from [Route] 110, which is my normal route to work. All of a sudden there was a huge ball of flames that went up into the sky behind the row of trees that lines the exit and blocks the view Pentagon. There was a cement truck in front of me who jammed his brakes and skidded out of control and slammed into the guardrail. He was very shaken and confused as to what he just saw. I pulled up next to him to ensure that he was okay.

After confirming that he was indeed okay, I ventured forward warily to see what had happened. When I saw the ball of flames, I figured it was either an explosion from an overturned fuel truck or possibly a gas pump from a gas station had exploded.

I was not prepared for what I was about to see. The side of the Pentagon facing 395 [sic] was blackened and windows were blown out. There was a small fire on the ground near the heliport pads. At first I thought that a helicopter had crashed either landing or taking off.

There was a large light pole laying across 395 [sic] on top of a cab car and there was debris on the road.

There was an SUV [sport utility vehicle] that had run into another car.

Everyone appeared okay, they were out of their vehicles and on the side of the road. There were people streaming out of the Pentagon very quickly—the scene reminded me of when in the movies rats are shown escaping out of a flooded sewer system in the city.

Pedestrians were abandoning their cars on northbound 395 [sic] and running across the southbound lanes heading for shelter. There were still other pedestrians who stepped out of their cars staring in disbelief at the Pentagon, hugging each other.

***
 
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Ruby Gray

Member
The video evidence begins 4 minutes prior to the explosion, when a black towtruck followed Sgt William Lagasse into the Citgo station.

It parked at a Southside pump facing the Pentagon until 60 seconds after the fireball, then pulled out and drove north towards Columbia Pike.

The towtruck is seen in the left middle screen of the Citgo CCTV footage.

841
 

Ruby Gray

Member
There is 7 seconds of video from 02:39 - 02:45 where the apparently hysterical camera operator is aiming more or less across the highway from the northern lawn, to the concrete retaining wall beliw the cemetery. The video fluctuates wildly, and cars sometimes obscure it, but across the concrete barricade in the southbound lanes, there is a black car and that black towtruck is sitting behind it.

Watching this segment looped, frame by frame, with zoom and enhancement tools at the ready, is the best way to see the action.

For reference, here is the same line of sight on a recent Google street view (as close as I could make it), compared with a screenshot from the video.

https://flic.kr/p/2f4kPXn
 

Ruby Gray

Member
In the CIT video LLOYDE ENGLAND AND HIS TAXI CAB - THE EYE OF THE STORM, Lloyde cannot convince Craig Ranke that he was not on the overpass bridge when the pole hit his cab, so he got Craig to drive to the location where it happened - twice - and pointed out exactly where he was when the pole hit, and when his car skidded to a halt.

Craig still refused to believe Lloyde.
Had he searched the video record for verification of Lloyde's account, he should have found this.

https://flic.kr/p/2dEvTzT
 

Ruby Gray

Member
The image above of the taxi beside the cemetery wall is difficult to understand at first.
Yes, it looks like a random black blob.
Until you start recognising the features.

On this side of the concrete barrier, a silver sedan is parked, obscuring the rear of the black car.

From personal testimony given by the attending police officer, and by comparison with high definition photos of a silver sedan parked in the same relationship to Lloyde's taxi when it was on the bridge, and photos of the driver of the silver car who was one of 3 officials supervising Lloyde through the photo shoot, that car can be identified as the same vehicle at both locations.
I am not familiar with most American models, Jerry. Perhaps you know what it is?

https://flic.kr/p/2dEvTs8
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Ruby,

I can't make much sense out of Yvette Buzard's account. I agree she seems confused about the highway designations, and she uses 395 and 27 interchangeably. Highway 110 runs parallel to Highway 27 until they meet well to the north of the Pentagon, and there's no ramp directly connecting the two. If she was headed north on 110, maybe she took the street known as "Rotary Road" which is the extension of Columbia Pike into the Pentagon parking lot. Rotary Road runs parallel to 395, and there's a north onramp from there onto 27.

If indeed she was headed north on Highway 27, perhaps she saw Lloyde's taxi when it was stopped near the cemetery? And maybe she thought the light pole was sitting on top of the cab, because she couldn't or didn't see the part protruding into the cabin?
 

Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
About that silver car, there was a design fad that started with the 1986 Ford Taurus which had a characteristic smooth, bubbly look. That car had many imitators: Nissan Sentra and Altima, Toyota Corolla and Camry, and a bunch of Chevys, Pontiacs and Buicks. They all look about the same to me. I looked through some pictures of cars from that era, and couldn't find an exact match.
 

Ruby Gray

Member
Yes, confusing isn't it, when people have no idea what road they were actually on. CIT's idea of having everyone stand on location and draw in what they saw on an overhead photo, was empirically brilliant, but sadly not everyone has done this for our enlightenment, and thisvis one of the reasons that many accounts were falsely interpreted.

I think it is obvious that by "395", Buzard means "Route 27".
The things she describes can be seen from Route 27, such as this view from on top of the bridge of South Parking, where people were seen streaming out.

https://flic.kr/p/2gVqQbL
 

Ruby Gray

Member
We seem to have no photos or footage at all from the east and north side of the Pentagon, nor from the centre courtyard. The southwest and west faces were the only ones where anyone had a camera handy apparently.

So, using what is available, I wonder whether this screenshot shows YVETTE BUZARD. This lady was going from car to car, talking with the occupants. She looks not dissimilar to what a 20 years younger version of her current self (as seen on FB) would look like.

https://flic.kr/p/2gVqPRh
 
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Jerry Russell

Administrator
Staff member
Ruby, thanks for reposting all this material. I think it's the first time that it's appeared here, although it had been available at the now-demised LetsRollForums.

I've been scrolling through the discussion here, and I guess the Facebook chat has led me into some backpedalling and historical revisionism about my own statements? Just last November, look what I said to Emma Robertson...

...let's start by addressing the evidence that Ruby Gray has assembled in this thread. Don't you see that she's produced conclusive proof, from one eyewitness after another, that the aircraft that flew over the Pentagon on 9/11 was not on the "official" flight path, and could not have struck the light poles or the Pentagon?
... and now here I am, saying it's "evidence", yes, but not conclusive enough to shut down Chandler & Coste? I'm not completely buying into their cynical view about CIT's interview techniques, but I guess I'm allowing at least some possibility that CIT's bias was important. It's hard to know what might have been said off-camera.

Anyhow I'm sorry if I seem wishy-washy.
 

Ruby Gray

Member
I've been reading through Craig Ranke's response to Chandler & Cole's "Joint Statement about the 9/11 Pentagon Attack" written in 2011, which I find to be the most rational, measured and intelligent answer to a poorly presented, biased unreferenced hit piece from 9/11 researchers who should have known much better.

Except, of course, for Ranke's false assessment of Lloyde England's story. I always find it perplexing how he could be so incisively logical in most details, but so biased against Lloyde, who never changed his story, despite what CIT claimed. The evidence was all there, and they were privileged to be given all the clues on a silver platter, but never managed to put it together.

However Chandler treats Lloyde just as badly. He only pays lipservice to the concept of "respecting Lloyde and his taxi as proof of where the plane flew", as he condescendingly allows that Lloyde was forgetful or mistaken about his location. I think every one of of us recalls with great clarity where we were when we heard about 9/11, and Lloyde was no exception on his home ground, the territory in which he had driven cabs for many decades.

Lloyde knew exactly where he was, although he could not understand how he and his cab were moved from one location to another, and how his cab in the bridge photos was "facing the wrong way". In his story told to camera in CIT's first video THE FIRST KNOWN ACCOMPLICE, Lloyde's body language is indicative of his location when the pole hit, even though he was not given the opportunity to draw it on an aerial image as CIT's other eyewitnesses were.

When his car came to a halt, he was looking at the fire to his left, to the south. The northbound motorists were on his left.

https://flic.kr/p/2dEvL3i
 
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